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**Dominae** · June 28, 2003, 01:25

Re: Au402 Dar4: 10ad-1000ad

Originally posted by vmxa1
Is this one of the surprise you mentioned Dom, I had 1 turn to switch as England?

Nope, no mods to the rules from my end. I just tinkered with the map.

Keep at it, vmxa1...I hope the slowdowns are not too bad on your machine (because that would basically mean that everyone else's will be horrible!).

Dominae

**vmxa1** · June 28, 2003, 01:56

I left out trades or rather the lack of them.
I confess that I am not fond of trading and do as little as I can get away with even though I know it is another lever that can be used.
I have some contacts that I could use, I have my maps, but I have not trade either contacts or maps. I have accepted some maps, but not given one.
I have tech (as many as 5 one one case), but most have nothing to offer and no money (sounds familar). Only one other than Russia has a tech and it is Monarchy. I offered two techs and they wanted map and 810 gold, not likely. Russia wanted about the same, but not tech (now we are at war).
I even offer a contact to them, but that was not of much interest to them. Not sure why, I doubt they will be going off the island soon, maybe.
As to strategy, I don't have any at this point. I was thinking that I could make some good money out of my contacts and maps at some point, but I am not sure about that now. Maybe a key RoP to get at another Civ, if I get the troops to do anything. If I can muster up one decent island to add to my holdings I should be able to get ahead after a time with the extra cities. The only canidate that I can see is south, so that is why I am going for it. I
Just a though, but what the heck is the number needed for an FP in this map? I am piling up cash to upgrade if I get the chance. I am making a few horses in the hope that I can eventually get saltpeter. Given the research levels, I am probably going to have to make a skip on knights and any thing else I can think of doing.
I am also having trouble with the unhappy citizens of England, but it is just a small thing as so many tiles are none shield yielding it is just as easy to make entertainers. I can spare the food and gold, not the shields.
I finally got the mainland competely roaded, what a job without industrious workers. I could have make more workers, but there was no need to rush into it as the tiles are often of little value.

**Catt** · June 28, 2003, 18:22

Part 3 (see previous threads)

When we last left Elizabeth's empire, England had just become a Republic in circa 50 AD. Exploring English galleys had found safe passage to (i) German-Franco lands, (ii) Arab-Egyptian lands, (iii) America, and (iv) Rome. It seemed clear that Rome shared its landmass, but Elizabeth had been unwilling to pay for contacts that would come soon enough.

Much of the early ADs consisted of city improvements and galley exploration. Elizabeth considered an assualt on Arabia or Egypt, but decided to press ahead with empire development for the time being. Had either civilization controlled additional luxuries, controlled an important wonder, or controlled productive land, English forces would have invaded. Alas, with such bleak lands under their control, the Queen decided to focus on exploration and economic matters, and save the invasion for a time when the relative advantage between English and enemy forces was greater still -- with English exploration the Queen expected to race forward while the Arabs and Egyptians, denied contacts around the world and living in desert, withered away. The Arab-Egyptian lands would really be most valuable as staging grounds for an invasion of Germany and France to the north. An assualt on America, which controlled many spices, would have been approved immediately - unfortunately, there was no safe passage to America and many forces would be lost at sea. Peaceful exploration it was, then.

Very soon numerous additional civlizations were discovered near Rome -- the Zulu, the Iroquois, the Mongols, the Ottomans, the Persians, the Celts, the Spanish, the Vikings. Later, English galleys would find isolated Babylon, Carthage, India, and even Japan. (Who am I forgetting?)

Several brave English galleys perished during dangerous runs into the oceans, but eventually such runs paid off - English saliors discovered an unihabited island to the north-east of the home isle. It was isolated by ocean and so not subject to settlement without great risk, but the Queen hoped that English knowledge of the island, combined with keeping close to a tech lead, would enable English colonization of the lands before others.

The backwardness of Arabia and Egypt allowed England to settle a small island just off the Arab coast -- this small island will be the staging grounds for any future English invasion.

The great island to London's southeast contained both a source of iron and a source of wines. It's been colonized in full, though the iron remained unconnected. English cities continued to build improvements; fully-improved cities began building England's army - in the absence of connected iron, spears and horseman are coming in numbers. At some point, veteran warriors may be produced. England still has some 12 - 15 warriors - almost all regulars - from her expansion stage, and may choose to upgrade these regulars to swords rather than disband them in favor of veteran swords.

Strategic resources that might deplete will not deplete if they are not connected to a city / trade network. Since I have no use for iron now, but will certainly have use for it later, I have not connected my sole supply of iron. It would be a real shame to connect it and have it deplete before I'm really ready to use it. When I have a sufficient force of horsies, warriors, and spears I'll connect it and upgrade. I did mine it for the extra shields - but no roads.

With the discovery of so many new civilizations, Elizabeth discovered that England was slightly behind the tech leaders, but not terribly behind. The Persians and the Ottomans (followed closely by the Iroquois) were the leaders. All three civilizations were constructing Sun Tzu's Art of War upon introduction to the Queen, but none had begun Sistine Chapel or Leo's Workshop.

Several civs had discovered Monarchy, but none other than England had discovered the Republic. Elizabeth leveraged her knowledge of Republic to trade to tech parity (or nearly so). Shortly after a trading round that brought England into the Middle Ages (and allowed her to acquire Feudalism), Persia and Ottomans secured Monotheism. Elizabeth allowed her treasury to grow as she turned off research completely. Too few libraries made research seem so expensive -- but as time passed, Elizabeth cam to understand that buying techs was going to be very expensive as well. Monotheism couldn't be fetched for 1700 gold, even after three civs knew the technology. After building a treasury of approximately 2000 gold, Elizabeth turned on research so as to run only a small surplus or a small deficit, and began research on Engineering. More than a dozen turns had passed, and no new technologies seemed to have been researched (SUn Tzu's was built by the Perisnas and no cascade to Sistine followed - I knew no one had Theology).

The Queen's scientists researched Engineering in about 14 turns. England was the first with the knowledge. A pre-build was started for Leo's Workshop -- the completion of Leo's might induce Elizabeth to upgrade regular warriors but without Leo's, she'd probably build new veteran warriors for upgrade to swords. Soon each of Persia, Ottomoans, and Iroquois began work on Sistine Chapel. Monotheism was still fetching 2000+ gold. In a failure of attention, Elizabeth allowed someone else to discover Engineering before she was willing to trade. Rats! Sometime in the 600's AD England discovered Invention. England was the first to do so. A few turns later, a series of trades brought England Monotheism (for cash), Theology and Chivalry (for Invention), most of England's cash back (for Invention), and tech superiority over all but the Ottomans. The Ottomans had discovered Education, and it was too expensive to trade for or buy.

Below is a screenshot showing the Egyptian empire at 680 AD - the stage of the game I am at. It includes a large minimap (showing some vapor trails of suicide galleys) and a shot of the far eastern English outpost just north of Arabia.

Catt

Attached Files

**Catt** · June 28, 2003, 18:25

And here's a shot of my empire's "status" at 680 AD. Included is the trade I made to Persia for a tech lead (actually one tech behind Ottomans).

Catt

Attached Files

**Catt** · June 28, 2003, 18:32

I think this game is going to come in much smaller chunks now -- it may truly be a summer epic (as in the entire summer). I'm playing on a 1.6 Gz laptop with 256 Mb Ram, and I timed my last turn from 670 AD to 680 AD. From end of turn through end of next turn - exlcuding all time spent moving forces, selecting build items, conducting diplomacy, etc. -- in other words, all the time spent with the info box saying "Please Wait" -- 3 minutes 55 seconds passed! Just shy of 4 minutes, and there is no known AI war, no new settlements popping up that I can see, and very few AI ships exploring (no one has astronomy yet).

Four minutes is a long time, especially when broken into about 2 and a half minutes between end of turn and then 1 and a half minutes between science / city build selection and unit movement -- it's broken up into smaller chunks, but still represents a large investment of time. I want to at the very least discover the few remaining civs I haven't found, and then I'll slow down quite a bit.

Catt

**vmxa1** · June 28, 2003, 22:14

Man I do not know how you managed to get all the way across the map, that is some feat in my book.
I did not post a mini map here as the 1000 marker as I did not want to spoil anything for those that did not make any galley runs.
I got China, Japan, Arabia, Cleo,Aztecs,Russia,Korea and some other civ before I got sick of losing gallies.
I also could not find anything to do with the contacts, so I figured to forget it.

**vmxa1** · June 28, 2003, 22:21

The other thing you mentioned that I wondered about was any attempt to attack one of these civs.
I mean how are going to get units there in any numbers?
I lost at least 3 out of every 4 and most of them were empty. I would hate to do even worse with loaded ones. I did lose about 4 loaded ones trying to settle off of Japan and South of the homeland. I figured I had no choice on that one. Invasion would face fully settled islands and be very hard don't you think?
As I said before I play almost no maps with losts of island and therefore have no real experience at this aspect. Is there something I need to know?
The other point is no real good units can be made on the mainland as you have no Iron. Ok horses, but no Swords or Med Inf. What was your plan?

**Dominae** · June 28, 2003, 22:26

Originally posted by vmxa1
Ok horses, but no Swords or Med Inf. What was your plan?

Both Horses and Iron require a Harbor on one of the adjacent islands.

Dominae

**vmxa1** · June 28, 2003, 22:28

I dam I forgot the world was round and I could go west and hit the far side sooner. I guess that will learn me to not use more water. Now I can run off looking for more contacts. Like a dummy I was trying to go east all the way across.

**Catt** · June 29, 2003, 01:26

Originally posted by vmxa1
Man I do not know how you managed to get all the way across the map, that is some feat in my book.
I did not post a mini map here as the 1000 marker as I did not want to spoil anything for those that did not make any galley runs.

The Great Lighthouse helps immensely - it would be an entirely different game without the GL -- I suspect you're playing that different game. With the GL there are safe sea passages to almost all the civs I've found -- I think the only civ that I've already discovered that needed a suicide galley run is Japan (in the upper left-hand corner of my map). The rest are all accessible via sea routes. I know there are 5 or 6 additional undiscovered civs but I suspect they are all backwards. And I suspect there are several islands / landmasses near my home island that I haven't found because I've not been running suicide galleys -- I had enough exploration to do via safe sea routes. I did get a jump start by suiciding my way to America (northwest of the home island - appears in the mid-right of the minimap) which opened up Rome and about 5 or 6 others, but I would have discovered those civs 5 or 10 turns later via the sea passage through Arabia / Egypt to France / Germany. Without the GL, I would have lost a lot more galleys trying to find folks.

I got China, Japan, Arabia, Cleo,Aztecs,Russia,Korea and some other civ before I got sick of losing gallies.
I also could not find anything to do with the contacts, so I figured to forget it.

The contacts haven't actually helped all that much. Had I been technologically backwards, they would have helped a lot. But since I was pretty close to the leaders, the contacts basically offered a great deal of comfort in picking tech research choices and the comfort zone necessary to pursue wonders if desired (so far Leo's is the only target - I would have liked Sistine on this map, but didn't have a chance at it). I do expect a bonanza from contatcs sometime soon, as I will trade contacts when astronomy hits the scene. I've stumbled a bit with tech research versus cash hoarding. The tech costs, both research and cash trade value, are so out of whack compared to my normal experience on standard maps that I've run science at 0 for a dozen turns before deciding to turn it back on because of the exceptionally slow tech pace and the absurdly high tech trade cost.

The other thing you mentioned that I wondered about was any attempt to attack one of these civs.
I mean how are going to get units there in any numbers?
I lost at least 3 out of every 4 and most of them were empty. I would hate to do even worse with loaded ones. I did lose about 4 loaded ones trying to settle off of Japan and South of the homeland. I figured I had no choice on that one. Invasion would face fully settled islands and be very hard don't you think?

Again, the GL makes all the difference. Getting units there in numbers just requires logistics planing, provided you can get units there safely. The GL allows you to do this. For instance, I have settled a small island just off of Arabia. It is a galley run from Arabia (with the GL).

The other point is no real good units can be made on the mainland as you have no Iron. Ok horses, but no Swords or Med Inf. What was your plan?

Not to beat a dead horse, but once again it is the GL at work. Without the GL, you won't have iron on the mainland until astronomy. But that can be an advantage - I've left my iron unconnected, but without the GL, my homeland would operate without iron anyway. If I decide to attack Arabia and Egypt, I'll do so by massing horsies, spears, and warriors from the mainland on the eastern island (where there is iron), upgrading them to knights, pikes, and swords, and then moving them into position on my small island off of Arabia. There's not a real good reason to go after Arabia yet (except for basic land and a staging grounds to the world's heartland) and since they're backward and will remain so for some time, I'll bide my time building expensive cathedrals and then universities, and attack with knights against spears and some pikes or even cavalry against the same when I'm in a better position to move against the heartland. I'm hoping for Leo's to help me -- building expensive improvements now, enabling a constant stream of cheap units later while maintaining economic superiority / parity with the world leaders, and further enabling cheap upgrades to a first class fighting force when needed. There's no fear of invasion now, so I can choose to focus on infrastructure or units -- in many cases I would go for units but in this case I'm trying to put infrastructure in place and count on a later unit swarm to carry the day.

In my game, the looming strategic choice will be to go after navigation, economics, or cavalry. Navigation offers luxury trades, allowing me to lower my luxury slider (constantly at 20% or 30%), but also chepens the tech and starts the rush to settle unsettled islands; also, contacts go out the window completely with Navigation. Economics allows Smith's (a boon on this map, I think) and the trade value of the tech. Cavalry offers an easy steamroll over Arabia and Egypt (provided we have saltpeter) but probably comes too late to allow an effective rush against France and Germany.

BTW, per Dominae's suggestion in the scenario intro, I turned off cultural victory. I am woefully behind in culture, even compared to the "backwards" civs, because I didn't build a temple or library until after I had met my first civs (didn't have the techs until then given my beeline towards Republic). I expect that any invasion will be frustrating slow with lots of resistors and lots of culture flips.

I notice in aonther thread that you're seeing 90 second turns with a 3+ Gz machine -- I'm consistently seeing 4 minutes per turn on my 1.6 Gz machine and there is no war nor any new settlements with corresponding trade route calculations. This could turn into a serious grind soon (it's already painful to do something else for minutes at a time only to make a few unit moves and set a few building orders before tapping "next turn.")

Catt

**vmxa1** · June 29, 2003, 04:25

BTW you get Iron on the mainland with Astronomy as only sea tiles are between you and the other island.
I did not notice the mention off turning off culture, so I am stuck with what ever the settings are. I think al the selections were on, but I did nto really look at, just click by that screen.
Anyway I have misplayed this from the start, but I am trying to plough through to see the whole impact of this map. I am not concern with the out come and that is why I did not restart. can you image trying to play this over, ugh.
It will surely cure any thoughts of huge maps for me for a long time.
I may want to start using more water to get the hang of it.
I tried to get the lighthouse, but shield production was too low. I got no settlers and had to use my capitol too much.

**jshelr** · June 29, 2003, 07:06

America the builders move toward the industrial era.

150 AD finishes the harbor in North Island – year of the horse. 13 turns to Great Library.

Nine turns later Russia suddenly builds the GL and our goose is cooked. Just as well. The game remains interesting.

America turns completely builder, abandoning suicide galleys and keeping the military down to an absolute minimum. Full speed ahead on tech. I think we are ahead on tech and we will try to build a lead heading into the industrial era when cross ocean landings are possible. Arab/Egyptian large island looks ripe for plunder.

**jshelr** · June 29, 2003, 07:33

Jealous of Catt's exploratory success. That extra space moved each turn changed the whole game!!

Question: how many cities for the FP??

There is only a moderate amount of steam rising from the computer. I play a turn and go away for a few minutes. Very calming.

**Catt** · June 29, 2003, 13:14

Originally posted by jshelr
Jealous of Catt's exploratory success. That extra space moved each turn changed the whole game!!

The safe sea travel is what did it -- that and ponying up 35 - 65 gold per civ to buy territory maps each time I met them. The extra movement point is nice, but the safe sea travel is especialy helpful on this map. I must have invested 2,500 to 3,000 gold in map purchases and embassy establishments.

Catt

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Au402 Dar4: 10ad-1000ad

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