Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[TimHobbit]

Dominae - Thanks for the info. Works.

Only small "pet peeve" can't quick start game with mods working.

Will say that Bab Bowmen are awsome with 0 Bombard.

Thanks for that last game.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by TimHobbit
Only small "pet peeve" can't quick start game with mods working.

If you want to use Quick Start with any mod (the AU mod in particular), you need to replace your civ3X.bix file in your PTW directory with the AU mod scenario .bix, renamed to 'civ3X.bix'. Of course, you should backup the original.


Dominae

[aaglo]

About the new secret police building:

Is there a graphical presentation of this building?

[aaglo]

Hey!

I think that horses and furs should also produce +1 food. Or what do you think?

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by aaglo
Hey!

I think that horses and furs should also produce +1 food. Or what do you think?

I don't see why not -- horses evolved in North America and thrived here until our ancestors migrating over the Bering land bridge ate them into extinction -- thank heavens at least some of the horses had the good sense to head the other way! And IIRC you can still find "cheval" on some menus in France, unless that's recently changed.

--Of course, using them as a food source, you might want to increase the probability of their disappearance as a strategic resource.

-Oz

[Bluefrog]

Originally posted by Ozymandias

--Of course, using them as a food source, you might want to increase the probability of their disappearance as a strategic resource.

-Oz

Well, the same could be said for Fish, Wheat, Game, Cattle, and who knows what else I'm forgetting. *shrug*

[alexman]

This is a good idea that might improve realism, but I think it would change the game too much for this MOD. Furs are already the best luxury resource. No need to further unbalance the luxuries.

On another matter, player 1 has a discussion going about the cost of the Gallic Swordsman. I think he has decided to reduce their cost to 40.

Most ancient-age units fit nicely in the curve:
Cost/10 = (MajorStrength-1) + 0.5*(MinorStrength-1) + Movement - UU
where UU is 1 if the unit is a UU, zero otherwise.

The "curve cost" of Gallic Swordsmen is 35, but their actual cost is 50. Are they overpriced?

Why did Firaxis choose 50 as their cost? I suspect it was because a warrior upgrade with a cheaper cost was too powerful in their testing.

I have actually never played as the Celts. What do people think about this unit? And does it really upgrade to Med. Infantry? How does that work, since the GS is actually more expensive? Do you get cash back?

Anyway, if I had to change something, I would allow the Celts to build normal Swordsmen, and reduce the cost of Gallic Swordsmen to 40 but remove them from the normal upgrade chain.
So the Celts would have:
warrior->swordsman->m.infantry->guerilla
g.swordsman->guerilla

Powerful warrior upgrades would no longer be a problem, and the Celts would continue to be able to build a somewhat useful UU (poor-man's knights) in the middle ages.

[badams52]

Originally posted by alexman
This is a good idea that might improve realism, but I think it would change the game too much for this MOD. Furs are already the best luxury resource. No need to further unbalance the luxuries.

Furs

But their never on good terrain. I prefer wines, silks, gems, ivory and spices, especially wines and gems. But then again, I'm a commerce junkie.

edit: I don't know how to spell firs

[alexman]

Furs are usually in forests (OK, sometimes tundra). After you chop down the non-tundra forest, and improve the tile, you get a 2-2-2 tile in despotism.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by alexman
I have actually never played as the Celts. What do people think about this unit? And does it really upgrade to Med. Infantry? How does that work, since the GS is actually more expensive? Do you get cash back?

The upgrade is free, if I recall.

Anyway, if I had to change something, I would allow the Celts to build normal Swordsmen, and reduce the cost of Gallic Swordsmen to 40 but remove them from the normal upgrade chain.
So the Celts would have:
warrior->swordsman->m.infantry->guerilla
g.swordsman->guerilla

Powerful warrior upgrades would no longer be a problem, and the Celts would continue to be able to build a somewhat useful UU (poor-man's knights) in the middle ages.

I don't like this idea... even at cost of 40 (which I support, 50 is huge, esp. since the original Civ 3 UUs don't cost any extra) the gold upgrades of warriors will be substantial compared to a standard sword upgrade.

Breaking the upgrade change is too big of a change for this mod to make, in my taste. Also, doing that would allow for a Celtic that doesn't have horses to make "poor man's knights" long after Gallic swords should have become obsolte. Extending the shelf life of a very powerful UU doesn't seem balancing.

The cost should be 40.

Alternativly, we could look at raising the cost of some Civ3 UUs to match the curve of PTW. Should the difference between hoplites and Num. Mercs really be so big, after all? And Mounted Warriors are CHEAP.

[Dominae]

Reducing the cost to 40 is way to big a change. This not just "old Dominae complaining about changing too much". Changes to the UUs really affect gameplay a lot: the French are now a powerhouse, IMO. The point of this mod is not to balance all the UUs to make sure everyone get's a fair shake. And even if it were, we should work on the Indians, Mongols, etc. before the Celts. The only reason I can see that Gallic should be special is that it promises to be a great unit, and players are disappointed when it is not. That's not a good reason to make a change to this particular mod.

Edit: And, by the way, removing the Gallic from the upgrade path is irrelevant to the issue at hand, since the optimal play is to rush with Gallics until Knights arrive, not Medieval Infantry.


Dominae

[Fosse]

Dom makes good points about the UUs of other civs. I'd add Scandanavia to the list as being too powerful.

But removing Gallics from the upgrade chain isn't irrelevant. Doing so would mean you could build them even after you get Med. Infantry, making them last until geurillas (with their usefulness expiring sometime around muskets or rifles for taking cities, and even then still useful against cavalry in the field)

Plus, what I said about a Celtic civ that doesn't get horses for some reason.

The new upgrade path makes Gallics even more powerful than lowering the cost, by hugely extending their shelf life.


edit for clarity.

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Bluefrog


Well, the same could be said for Fish, Wheat, Game, Cattle, and who knows what else I'm forgetting. *shrug*

*Ahem* but, unlike the ones you name, horses are a strategic resource, so there would be different consequences for gameplay.

-Oz

[Jawa Jocky]

Sorry about being way off topic, but;

Instead of tweaking ship movement on a per ship basis, should we create a Small Wonder to effect naval unit movement?

[Fosse]

Originally posted by Jawa Jocky
Instead of tweaking ship movement on a per ship basis, should we create a Small Wonder to effect naval unit movement?

I'd say no. The per-ship movement increases make sense, given that the ships they are applied to come later in the game.

Adding a small wonder might have the same overall effect, but at a shield cost to each civ, and a disadvantage to any who have yet to build the small wonder.

The current system is fine by me... so that's my two cents.