Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[Dominae]

Playing AU203 I noticed a significant delay in the time when I could begin producing the Forbidden Palace (5 extra cities, to be exact). Although this did not affect my strategy much in this particular game, I can see it being quite relevant on other maps, or when using looser city spacing that I did. Something to keep in mind, I guess.

But yes, 20 cities is too many on a Standard map.


Dominae

[alexman]

Increasing the number of cities needed for the FP by 150% changes the flavor of the game for sure. That's why I removed that change from 1.15, even though it helps the AI in three ways: It increases the likelyhood that the AI might build the FP further away from its capital, it removes a human-only powerful corruption tool from the early part of the game, and it encourages the AI to get enough territory to threaten domination.

[Dominae]

Ok, I just finished AU203, and thought I would share my observations on the new Communism. I know we will not be keeping the current version because of the unfortunate Despotism/Monarchy side effect, but I believe my screenshots are informative and interesting nonetheless (you be the judge!).

The first screen is from the last turn I was in Republic (I've just discovered Motorized Transportation, and am hoping that Flight will not take too long under Communism). The second screen is from my first turn of Communism, only 4 turns of Anarchy later.

Of particular note are the similar Shield outputs and comparable research times (I was expecting research to come to a crawl, to be honest). I had not begun claiming any new land yet (recall the 203 rules), but with my tight spacing I'm quite sure I was over the OCN.

Do we want Communism to be this good? Is this good, or am I just surprised? Note that I was at war (offensively) for exactly 61 turns until the game was over, which is simply not possible with Republic or Democracy.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Republic:

[Dominae]

Communism:

[alexman]

If you ask me, the difference in science output is fine in those screenshots. Republic is almost twice as good for research.

A really good test would be to compare Monarchy to Communism, as those are the two war-time governments. If they are close, it's good. If one or the other is clearly better (especially if that's the ancient Monarchy), then something needs to change. Do you have a save from just before Anarchy was over? You can compare all governments in the same turn that way.

[kettyo]

Originally posted by alexman
If you ask me, the difference in science output is fine in those screenshots. Republic is almost twice as good for research.

Not really.
Republic has -90 gold income while communism has -10 gold.
So it's unfair to compare their science output.
They could only be compared fairly with the nearest gold income values possible.

[kettyo]

Originally posted by alexman
Increasing the number of cities needed for the FP by 150% changes the flavor of the game for sure. That's why I removed that change from 1.15, even though it helps the AI in three ways: It increases the likelyhood that the AI might build the FP further away from its capital, it removes a human-only powerful corruption tool from the early part of the game, and it encourages the AI to get enough territory to threaten domination.

But you'll keep the +50% increase introduced with 1.13 won't you? I feel the +50% cities until FP is no problem.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
Note that I was at war (offensively) for exactly 61 turns until the game was over, which is simply not possible with Republic or Democracy.

I've actually had some extremely long wars in Republic, though I don't have exact durations, and while protracted wars are normally "impossible", if you have enough "good happiness stuff", it can be done.

Again, I don't have definite numbers, so this is anecdotal(sp? ), but I believe it could be done.

It may, however, be a factor of difficulty level (and "born content" citizens).

[Dominae]

alexman, I'll take a look at Monarchy when I get the chance. I guess the Science issue is where it should be. But what about the Shield output? I've got almost no Corruption!

kettyo, given that the Science slider is maxed out in both examples, the comparison is fair. Just imagine that Communism is earning +80gpt and Republic 0gpt.

ducki, 61 turns is a long time to be the aggressor. Crippling WW would have happened at turn 30 at most (I had all Luxuries save one, Marketplaces and Temples everywhere, Women's Suffrage, Bach's). Being able to declare war and go through with it in one big go is a nice change from my usual games, and is a pretty powerful option. Have you reached Communism in your game? When you do, I think you'll see what I mean (Luxury slider, who needs that!?!).


Dominae

[ducki]

Maybe the difference is that I normally put Cathedrals everywhere and work really hard to get Sistine as well as HG.

I also proactively use the Lux slider and Entertainers as needed.

Perhaps Sistine + Cathedrals(rushed if necessary) in any city that has unhappiness is enough to explain the difference - that and the jump from Regent to Monarch?

[Dominae]

I haven't tested out all the possibilities, but on Emperor, with all the happiness goodies you can ever have, I think you would have a tough time warmongering like I did if the government was Republic. Cathedrals and Sistine should prolong the inevitable by a few turns, but ultimately WW would win out in 60 turns (1400-1700AD).

It would be interesting to figure out exactly how long you can go in the scenario above before WW eats you up. This raises another question: does WW scale with the number of battles, number of units inside enemy territory, etc. or is it just a constant factor for each civ? For example, if I have 1 Infantry inside China's borders (under Republic) will this generate as much WW as if I had a stack of 20 Infantry there?


Dominae

[Stuie]

From what I've seen, WW is reduced by military successes and increased by failures. Granted I play on Monarch, but I've been able to maintain a Democratic government during a protracted war as long as I continue to have successful engagements with my enemies. Note that I also make sure that my luxuries are maxed out, but I never use the luxury slider.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
But what about the Shield output? I've got almost no Corruption!

Looking at your Iron Works city, it has 102 blue shields, and 4 red ones. Since it has a 200% bonus to each shield, if there were no corruption you would get 12 extra shields. That's about 10% corruption. I think that's OK for an empire slightly larger than the OCN, especially given how low the OCN is compared to human empires in usual games.

[ducki]

Anecdotally, I can also agree with Stuie - when things go well, or when I am winning a purely defensive war, I get little to no WW.

When I am the aggressor, or when I lose a lot, WW seems to eat me up.

Also, razing seems to give me more WW than Take-n-hold offensives.

Again, this is purely anecdotal, supported by no numbers or SAVs, it just seems that way.