AU: A MOD for the curiculum

[Arrian]

KD,

Yeah, I think it will help the ironclad-happy AI. 120 gold is ok.

P1,

5/6/1 for Riflemen
8/10/1 for Infantry

So a +1 attack for Rifles and +2 for Infantry. I like the idea, but I worry that 8 attack is a bit much for infantry. How about a compromise at 7?

Alexman,

What about P1's army changes (300 shields, can pillage things)? Those sound good.

-Arrian

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Killerdaffy
120 Gold enough for you? It might help the AI, especially the killer version that has enough money.

120 gold for the civ that has built Leonardo's. For everyone else, it's 240 gold.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Arrian
+2hp to subs? I'd just increase their a/d stats. Or add 1 hp. 2 is a lot.

I second that. Just give them 10 attack instead of 8, like player 1 in his mod. No need to tinker with hitpoints (a rather controversal issue for mod-makers).

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Arrian
What about P1's army changes (300 shields, can pillage things)? Those sound good.

Makes sense and at least shouldn't hurt the AI. We're gonna end up with 99% of player1's changes, anyway, they've been thoroughly discussed. Plus the build restructuring, of course.

[alexman]

Wow, so many things to answer!

• Wealth boost: The point was to eliminate the disbanding of new units in corrupt cities. As it is now, it's NEVER worth it to produce Wealth, unless you don't feel like micromanaging. Increasing it by anything less than a factor of four will still make it better to produce units instead of Wealth. Ideally we would double Wealth and cut the shields from disbanding in half, but the latter is not editable. Anyway, since everyone agrees that a factor of four is too much, I will change it back to a factor of two.
• Specialists: As Killerdaffy said, this would increase micromanagement, and probably disadvantage the AI (who rarely use specialists other than entertainers). It would also reduce the importance of corruption (and the commercial trait), since you could get a good income in 95% corrupt cities by irrigating everything and having lots of specialists. Do you still want this change?
• Movement of carriers: Will increase to 6 immediately!
• City and leader names: That's a lot of work to add now! Any volunteers?
• AI Offense flag for Musketman: It's the same as having the AI offense flag for riflemen in the vanilla version. The AI uses mostly cavalry (or longbowmen) for attack, doesn't it? (At least now with 1.29 it does). I think the AI prefers to attack with units that have only the offense flag checked. It also does some sort of calculation to see if it has good odds of winning the battle. If not, it doesn't attack - usually. I wouldn't want to increase the stats of musketmen without having the AI take advantage of it.
• AI offense flag for MI: I don't think the AI uses MI when there is MA available. If the offense is flagged for infantry, shouldn't it be also for MI? But I'm fine with it either way.
• Increase Attack for Riflemen, Infantry: You're right, it will probably help the AI, who uses them on offense more often than the human does. I'll use player 1's ADM values, but I won't decrease their cost.
• Submarines: By increasing their HP instead of their attack, we make extreme results (like subs getting sunk by galleons) less frequent. They are now stronger, but without being overpowering versus military ships. So subs will be forced to hunt transport ships instead of battleships, which I think is the correct thing to do.
• Armies: Reducing their cost lessens the importance of leaders. Do we want to do that? If so, then I will make the change.

Thanks for all the great feedback!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
Wealth boost: The point was to eliminate the disbanding of new units in corrupt cities. As it is now, it's NEVER worth it to produce Wealth, unless you don't feel like micromanaging.

It can be worthwhile to produce wealth if one wants to max out the science rate to get a key technology ASAP and still maintain a positive cashflow. Producing wealth and rush-buying at the same time is a bad idea indeed under the present rules, and micromanagement is encouraged. However, quadrupling the wealth ratio makes for a whole different game and certainly cannot be termed as 'changing as little as possible'.

Specialists: As Killerdaffy said, this would increase micromanagement, and probably disadvantage the AI (who rarely use specialists other than entertainers).

OTOH, it will encourage city growth beyond size 20, which is a good thing IMO. Also, to feed one additional specialist, you'll have to irrigate one railroaded grassland or plains tile instead of mining it, therefore foregoing two shields for two commerce. And contrary to the shields, no bonus can be applied for the additional commerce. Doesn't sound too unbalancing to me.

Movement of carriers: Will increase to 6 immediately!

City and leader names: That's a lot of work to add now! Any volunteers?

No need to reinvent the wheel. Look out for Sevoraks 'more city names' mod, v3.16.

AI Offense flag for Musketman: It's the same as having the AI offense flag for riflemen in the vanilla version.

Yes, but that doen't necessarily mean it's a good idea.

AI offense flag for MI: I don't think the AI uses MI when there is MA available. If the offense is flagged for infantry, shouldn't it be also for MI?

Contrary to infantry, if mech infantry is available (because you have the necessary techs/ressources), a better attack unit (the tank/panzer) is ALWAYS available.

Increase Attack for Riflemen, Infantry: You're right, it will probably help the AI, who uses them on offense more often than the human does. I'll use player 1's ADM values, but I won't decrease their cost.

This is probably a matter of taste, but I'd rather decrease their costs and leave their A/D/M rates alone.

Submarines: By increasing their HP instead of their attack, we make extreme results (like subs getting sunk by galleons) less frequent.

This is not a reason for a unit-specific hitpoint bonus, but for a general increase in hitpoints (e.g. a 3/4/5/6 scale). If you want that, it's fine with me. If not, rather tweak attack and defense values than hitpoints.

Armies: Reducing their cost lessens the importance of leaders. Do we want to do that? If so, then I will make the change.

If one wants to somewhat lessen the importance of leaders and make armies more common, reducing their costs is the second-best way. The best way IMO is to make the Military Acadamy available with Military Tradition, but without a victorious army. Again, I'm not sure if this is compatible with a 'change as little as possible' approach.

[Killerdaffy]

Alexman,

Originally posted by alexman
City and leader names: That's a lot of work to add now! Any volunteers?

:b Here, immediately, since I now do it every time I add another bic ... Which bic do you want me to use? The one posted above? Or do you have one with all the other changes implemented already?

Increase Attack for Riflemen, Infantry: You're right, it will probably help the AI, who uses them on offense more often than the human does. I'll use player 1's ADM values, but I won't decrease their cost.

Submarines: By increasing their HP instead of their attack, we make extreme results (like subs getting sunk by galleons) less frequent. They are now stronger, but without being overpowering versus military ships. So subs will be forced to hunt transport ships instead of battleships, which I think is the correct thing to do.

Sounds both fine to me.

[alexman]

AI attack/defense flags

OK, I just spent some time over in player 1's thread. Here is my understanding of how these flags are used by the AI:

The AI decides to build a defensive unit. It builds the best defensive unit it can build that has the defense flag checked. It uses this unit to defend cities, settlers, workers, and offensive units, but NOT to attack.

Similarly, when it decides to build offensive units, it builds the best one it can build and uses it to invade and attack enemy units. It will choose longbowmen over musketeers every time, since the former is always available and the latter is more expensive. That means that even if we flag musketmen and musketeers for attack, the AI will never use them as such. Has anyone EVER seen the AI use musketeers to attack under 1.29f?

Once a unit is flagged, it retains the same flag forever, even when it is upgraded. Hence, if a pikeman is upgraded to a rifleman, it will NEVER attack any other unit. Is this correct? Could we get Soren to comment on the validity of this statement?

If the AI lacks resources to build the best offensive unit, he will build a unit like infantry which has both flags, but it will use it only for attack. When it is later upgraded, it will be used for attack again, unless the upgraded unit doesn't have the attack flag. What happens if the upgraded unit doesn't have the old unit's flag? My guess is that it does not get upgraded. The AI keeps the old unit around, until it's destroyed by attacking.

If all the above is correct, I think we should do the following:
1) Do not increase the attack stats of the musketeer. Reduce the cost to 50 instead. The former would benefit the human player but not the AI. Remove the attack flag from this unit.
2) Keep the attack flag for MI. If the AI has attack infantry wandering around, why not upgrade them to MI and give them more mobility and strength? The upgrade cost is minimal, and the AI will never build attack MI from scratch, over tanks.
3) Increase the attack strength of riflemen and infantry by 1. Since these units are flagged for offense, the AI will be more likely to win some of the battles that are suicide right now.

Killerdaffy, thanks for volunteering!
But perhaps it's easier to start from the names mod and add all our changes, than to start from our changes and add all those names! What do you think? Is the "more city names" mod out yet?

[Killerdaffy]

Re: AI attack/defense flags

alexman,

Originally posted by alexman
Killerdaffy, thanks for volunteering!
But perhaps it's easier to start from the names mod and add all our changes, than to start from our changes and add all those names! What do you think? Is the "more city names" mod out yet?

The city names patch has been out since about 1.16. I just copy-paste the city and leader names with two editors open, takes less than 10 min. At least you don't have to worry about forgetting a stat, since you simply do all civ's in a row. I already posted the link to a 1.29 version of the mod above, though, if you want to use it.

[lockstep]

Re: AI attack/defense flags

Originally posted by alexman
If all the above is correct, I think we should do the following:

2) Keep the attack flag for MI. If the AI has attack infantry wandering around, why not upgrade them to MI and give them more mobility and strength? The upgrade cost is minimal, and the AI will never build attack MI from scratch, over tanks.

If all the above is correct, I agree.

3) Increase the attack strength of riflemen and infantry by 1. Since these units are flagged for offense, the AI will be more likely to win some of the battles that are suicide right now.

Even with an attack strength of +1, I think that the costs of riflemen should be reduced to 70 shields (20 less than infantry) to make them more cost-effective.

1) Do not increase the attack stats of the musketeer. Reduce the cost to 50 instead. The former would benefit the human player but not the AI. Remove the attack flag from this unit.

The main problem of the musketeer is that the AI isn't likely to use a defense UU with slightly increased ATTACK strength effectively, e.g. for counterattacks. (Contrary to that, the AI will gain something from the Samurai's increased defense strength.) And I don't like the idea of a UU that COSTS less - the musketeer is crappy enough at the moment. So I propose the following (and no, it isn't a 'change as little as possible' feature ):

• Reduce the costs for BOTH musketmen and musketeers to 50 shields (20 more than pikemen) to make them cost-effective.
• Leave the musketman's A/D/M rating at 2/4/1, as in v1.29.
• Give the musketeer +1 DEFENSE strength, so that it becomes a 2/5/1 unit. Remove its attack flag.

At the very least, this will benefit the human player and the AI alike.

[alexman]

I updated the initial post with version 0.2

I changed Army cost, Carrier, Submarine, Musketman, Musketeer, Rifleman, Infantry, Marine, and Paratrooper stats, Wealth, Specialists, City and Leader names.

Check it out!

[Edit: lockstep, I implemented two of the three changes you proposed for the musketman/musketeer. I think that giving France a 5-defense musketeer would make that civ too strong).

[lockstep]

Alexman, I didn't notice your update until now. I'll comment on the changes tomorrow (that is, today, if you are GMT +1 ).

[lockstep]

Re: AU: A MOD for the curriculum

Originally posted by alexman
Added Wheeled ability to Tank, Mech. Infantry, Modern Armor, Artillery, Radar Artillery

Reduced the cost strength of Musketmen and Musketeers by 10

Increased attack strength of riflemen from 4 to 5 and reduced their cost from 80 to 70

Increased attack strength of infantry from 6 to 7

I agree on the cost reduction, but I'm not sure about the increased attack strength. In v1.29, musketmen/riflemen/infantry/mech infantry have attack strengths of 2/4/6/12, which is a rather smooth transition. Player1 uses a scale of 3/5/8/12, which is also smooth (although it introduces an 'odd' attack strength of 5 ). A scale of 2/5/7/12 doesn't look very elegant to me. If you really want to make riflemen and infantry wortwile as attackers (which is discussible IMO), adopt player1's solution of an 8/10 infantry. It shouldn't be too unbalancing because marines (which have the same ressoure requirement - rubber) have an attack strength of 10 in your mod.

Increased attack strength of marines from 8 to 10

Increased attack strength of paratroopers from 6 to 8

You may also want to slightly increase their defense value just like player1 did.

Added zero-range bombard ability to Archers (2), Bowmen (2), and Longbowmen (4)

IMo a matter of taste, but I'm looking forward to game-reports.

Added airlift flag to Catapult, Cannon, Artillery, Radar Artillery, Explorer, Scout, Leader

Increased movement of Radar Artilery by 1. Now requires oil and rubber in addition to aluminum

Reduced the cost of Armies to 300 from 400 and added pillage ability.

YES to pillaging armies! As for the cost reduction, I'm for a more radical solution (Military Academy doesn't require a victorious army), but cheaper armies are a good alternative.

Increased ROF of Fighters, Jet Fighters, F-15, and Stealth Fighters by 1, and gave them lethal sea bombard (and the AI air bombard flag). All the above, except Fighters, also get lethal land bombard.

Check out player1's mod, he changed F-15 and Stealth Fighters back to the original RoF of 2 when he added lethal sea/land bombardment. BTW, I like lethal sea bombardment because it makes 'Pearl Harbor'-type air attacks possible - even if it is somewhat unbalancing -, but lethal land bombardment is a 'change fore the sake of change' IMO.

Increased bombard range of Cruise Missile to 6 from 2, and its ROF from 3 to 4

Increased Helicopter range to 8 from 6, and transport capacity to 2 from 1

Increased Paratrooper operational range to 8 from 6

Added one move to all ships except: Galley, Caravel, Galleon, Ironclad, Carrier

Added two moves to Carrier

Actually, I'm fiddling around with the idea to give Destroyers and AEGIS cruisers +2 movement so that they would be the fastest naval units, but I'm not sure if a movement rate of 7 is too unbalancing (after all, the maximal operational range for air units is 8).

Reduced the cost of the Privateer to 40 from 60

Prerequisite of the Ironclad is now Industrialization instead of Steam Power

Ironclad upgrades to Battleship

Increased ROF of Battleships, Destroyers, and AEGIS by 1

YES to more powerful battleships. OTOH I'd say leave Destroyers as they are now, leave the AEGIS cruiser's RoF at 2 and increase its bombard strength to 6. Finally, you could make Destroyers upgrade to AEGIS Cruisers.

Increased attack factor of Submarines and Nuclear Subs to 10 from 8

SS Life Support needs Recycling instead of Superconductor

SS Stasis Chamber needs Genetics instead of Synthetic Fibers

SS Docking Bay needs Robotics instead of Space Flight

YES to the changes to Life Support and Genetics. As for the Docking Bay, I'd rather leave it as it is now, because this makes researching Robotics (and therefore the ability to build manufacturing plants) more of a strategic choice.

Increased happy faces for Cure for Cancer to 3 from 1

Added two happy faces to Longevity

A radical solution to make Longevity useful: Move it to Medicine instead of Genetics.

Doubled value of Wealth

Doubled effect of specialists

Increased the cost of research by 20% for all map sizes

Hmm ... why not 5%, 10% or even 50%? I'd leave research costs alone for now and change them accordingly to reports from test-games.

Added more (and accurate) city names

Just a hint: In the Civilization forum, Wernazuma III is currently compiling city and leader names.

Changed AI build-often list as shown below

The rules you followed modifying the build priorities are well-documented. There is only one change I couldn't comprehend: Why did you remove 'culture' as a priority for the Egyptians and added 'wealth' instead? Anyhow, GREAT WORK, and should really help the AI.

Edit: lockstep, I implemented two of the three changes you proposed for the musketman/musketeer. I think that giving France a 5-defense musketeer would make that civ too strong.

Okay, commercial/industrious is not a bad combo (especially in v1.29) and the middle ages are a good period to trigger a golden age, but at least the human player could not use a 2/5/1 UU for conquest rushs the same way as Riders or Samurais. And a French AI with 2/5/1 musketeers could at least defend itself against other AI's ... But I agree, it's not a small tweak.

[Harovan]

I don't think a 2.5.1 Musketeer in the era of 2.4.1 Musketmen would be imbalancing, at least not as much as a 1.3.1 Hoplite in the era of 1.2.1 Spearmen.

[Arrian]

Lockstep,

I think I was the one who argued for "wealth" instead of "culture" for the Egyptians. They produce plenty of culture anyway, but we're after getting them to build marketplaces and banks. At least, that's the theory. Not a whole heckuva lot of difference was noted between the standard AI and the "killer" AI games in AU102.

-Arrian