A Mini-Tourney

[Theseus]

We've made some references to a Japanese game that some of us have played in a little mini-tourney. The point was not score, but to compare styles. It ended up being a lot of fun.

I've compiled all the PMs and emails below. Real names have been changed to protect the innocent.

You should probably read this thread in conjunction with "God Favors the Mighty" as there are a number of references there as well. Also, the 4000BC SAV is posted in that thread.

I'm also collecting a series of SAVs, and will put them in a zip file. If it's not too big, I'll post it here, otherwise contact me and I'll email it too you.

Be warned: Many spoilers in this, if anybody intends to play this game.

[Theseus]

Arrian wrote on 04-06-2002 08:58:

Hey, I've got an idea... or two ideas, actually.

First idea: one of us starts up a new game... we decide on the civ (Japan, Egypt... one of our favorites) and then we each play it out for a while and report back. *we* would be you, me, Txurce, Sir Ralph... whoever wants in.

Second idea: succession game. I've never done one, partly because I'm a control freak when it comes to civ... but I'd trust a rotation with you, me, Txurce, Ralph, etc.

Whatcha think?

-Arrian

p.s. I wonder if you're like me and always forget to check these private message thingies.
________________

Theseus wrote on 04-06-2002 13:32:

Let's do the first one.

As you know, I've been obsessing over worlds settings. How about the following:

Japan
Standard
Raging
Medium continents (=70% water)
Warm
Temperate
3 billion
Monarch
5 AI civs

The above settings get the ratios of resource to total titles down close to 3%, and keeps land area per civ no higher than 500 tiles. Playing at 3 billion reduces the number of productive tiles per civ, unevenly, and clusters resources.

(Yes, I know, I am totally ridiculous)

Thoughts? I'm going to play this anyway; if you'd like, I can send you the 4000 BC save. FYI, I restart for at least decent starting position.

Theseus
________________

Arrian wrote on 04-06-2002 16:11:

Yikes. One thing I must admit: I'm a wimp about barbs. I always play roaming. How about a compromise on that setting...restless?

5 AIs? Hmm... that's gonna mean more space, even with the small land mass setting. How about 6?

As for the rest, that's fine. I am also pretty picky about start locations, as I've mentioned in the past, so restarting for a decent location is not only ok, it's a must. In fact, I tend to seek more than just decent.

Or, you can just post a thread about it (though that opens us up to ridicule if we get our butts kicked! )

-Arrian
________________

Catt wrote on 05-06-2002 13:25:

Haven't looked at the game yet, but already interested in trying it to compare with others (may have to play hooky one day this week ).

Two questions:

Which is "Raging Barbarians" 24 horseman suddenly appear, or 16 horsemen suddenly appear (actually affects my city defense planning)?

You mention the resourse to non-resource tiles as about 3% -- is the result on any editor tweaks or just the game settings? Also, how does the percentage compare to, say, continents, 4 billion, temperate, normal, etc. (i.e. all mid-choices); more plentiful or scarcer resources?

Thanks,

Catt
________________

Theseus wrote on 05-06-2002:

1. Did I say raging? I think that's a mistake... I made it Restless (16) at Arrian's request. How do you use this... For Raging, I spend all my gold, empty the city and let them pillage, uh, nothing. For restless, I use it for promotions.

2. See the attached file. I think only map size, land coverage, and number of civs affect the total number of special tiles. Temperature and wetness should (?) provide a wider range of starting conditions, and age affects clustering.

I started on it a little last night, but I'm really tied up too. Can;t play hooky as I'm on a tight timeline. Jeez, that work stuff really interferes with Civ!!
________________

Sir Ralph wrote on 05-06-2002 19:10:

That tourney game rocks. I had an awesome evening with it .
________________

Arrian wrote on 06-06-2002 11:15:

Theseus,

That is one hell of a start spot. Nice terrain.

But I'm not doing all that well. I made a couple of mistakes. First was the placement of my 2nd city. I was trying to get it on the river, so I built it really close to the capitol... and as it turns out, it's not technically on the river. Arg. Second mistake was I built too large of an attack force. I should have scaled it back once I realized I only had 1 neighbor.

Speaking of which, bad neighbor to have. They're non-religious, which means most cities were autorazed. Blah. No leaders. One American city left. At least they built the Pyramids in Washington, and I managed the Colossus in my 3rd city.

I can see the border of another civ off the coastline, and now have mapmaking, but I'm worried about the timeline. If they're alone, though, they're toast. We'll see, but I'm figuring I'll end up winning, but certainly not with "ultimate power." That's the trouble with only getting 1 neighbor to beat on.

-Arrian
________________

Arrian wrote on 06-06-2002 12:37:

Theseus,

Damnit! You sure did get lucky with the leaders! I've won with a bunch of elites, and nada! Oh, to have a forbidden.

I'm hoping I can get enough troops north with galleys to beat on India (I assume it's them, due to color). I'm hoping they're on an island too. I'm hoping destroying the last American city will get me a GL. I'm hoping...

I too was a real bastard to Abe. I attacked, took a bunch of cities, made peace for tech, attacked took all but one, made peace for tech. I'd bet I'm still a ways behind. Almost have Monarchy, though, which ought to help.

I managed to beat Abe to the southern chokepoint (built a city right on the river next to the cow) and the good spot north of their (river, horses, 2 cows), I was unconcerned about his expansion. That starting spot we got was just insane for pumping settlers. I eventually even built a city on the incense hill east of the southern chokepoint, right next to one of Abe's towns. I attacked 3 turns later

I got screwed by one barb uprising. I lost 200+ gold, one turn before I connected my iron for the swordsman upgrade (horsies were done). As a result I still have several vet warriors lying around. Doh! Like I said, overkill on troops. Abe was such a freakin' pushover. Way, way too easy. I should have let some more cities live for a while, but I just don't have the patience to properly milk a punching bag.

-Arrian
________________

Sir Ralph wrote on 06-06-2002 13:15:

Ok guys, here's my input:

I did not use the Archer rush, since I figured early, that I'm alone with Abe and I needed him to make my research. I blocked both chokepoints with warriors and REXed like mad, to claim all land west of them. Had some bad luck with barbs, but nothing very bad.

10BC-260AD I fought the 1st American campaign, Arrian-style (horse/swords). America had gotten pretty big and I did not a single autoraze! Only Washington flipped back once (I had zero culture far from my palace), but the citizens surely did regret it. No soup for you, bastards . I didn't want to raze it, since Abe was so nice to build the Pyramids there for me. Left Abe with 5 coastal cities and a serious grudge at me. No leader . Oh well.

460AD-500AD Second American campaign. First battle - Great Leader! Wiped Abe off my continent, he survived with 1 city on the continent nearby, together with "that civ" you spotted. 470AD my 2nd suicidal galley made contact overseas, surviving ocean twice, woohoo! Not only "that civ", but "all civs"!

I already had prebuilt a FP 5 tiles north of my capital, eventually to perform a free palace jump. I saw, that it's optimally placed (better than Kyoto), so I moved 530AD my Palace to Washington, using the leader. Which prevents it, btw, from flipping again. The big continent I found has one big civ, which has the tech lead. I'm about 2 techs behind, but far in front power-wise. The other civs there are at war, poor, and can't afford techs, neither from the tech lead civ, nor from me.

820AD, the 3rd American campaign started. Too the American city on the nearby continent. They respawned, sigh! Used Samurai and have a GA now. Hopefully will catch up in tech. Now I'm shipping Sams over. It was 840AD, when I went to bed at 4am. This evening "the other civ" there will be toast.

I'm sending this to Theseus and Arrian. Does Catt participate? Would you (Th.) forward this to him? Txurce can't play with his Mac probably. Next time, maybe.

Fun game!!

Sir Ralph
________________

Theseus wrote on 06-06-2002 22:48:

I haven't gone on intercontinental attack yet... 750AD, and I'm amassing Samurai. Building like CRAZY. I've got almost everything automated, and I'm just picking what to build.

I found the big continent too... I build 8 galleys, and just set them to explore. I assume the big civ is China? If it is, what does that say about predeterminism... geography?

Catt won;t have time until this weekend, unless he skips work.

Theseus
________________

Sir Ralph wrote on 06-06-2002 17:00:

Yes, China. Make about 5 or 6 techs out of the 2 tech lead I wrote about. I'm struggling nearer, using my GA. Instead of building massive wonders, I build cash and reseach improvements in every city, that's better than a wonder. Only in 2 of my cities I build wonders, since the Music Theory and Economy seems to be out of China's research order and I have a monopoly of them. Soon are both ready. The showdown on the indian continent has begun 960AD. Soon it will be mine. The indians are pathetic. But they have luxuries my citizens will love. It's 1000AD now, my GA expires in 2 turns. I have a 10AD and 1000AD savegame, if somebody of you guys is interested, maybe later.

Back to the game.

(Just one more turn... and one... and one... )

[Theseus]

Theseus wrote on 06-06-2002 23:07:

Let's all exchange games at some point.

God, I know, this is definitely one of those "one more turn" games.

I've got 1 city to go on the main Indian continent... Samurai on Spearmen is just embarrassing. No GLs though.

Beelined for Navigation, both to trade with the big continent, and for Galleons. I'm doing the same as you next, for Music theory and Economics.

Verrry interesting about China... let's see what happens with Arrian and Catt.

Poor Txurce.

Theseus
________________
Sir Ralph wrote on 06-06-2002 19:57:

I own the indian continent. They still have a couple of cities on the island north of it. There's also Abe's last refugium. I could even had extorted one of the indian cities for peace, but I did not. Don't need a military base on that island. The campaign gave me a GL. Since I built Bachs and Smiths for good, I used it for an army of 2 samurais. Building Heroic Epic right now, later the Academy.

China is amazing. Although I'm making techs every 4 turns even without GA, I could only shorten its lead to 3 techs. I have 2 required techs to go in the medieval age, and he's offering me a MPP, must have Nationalism. And they are not scientific! If he beats me on ToE, I see a BIG invasion on his continent at the horizon. Meanwhile, he made the MPP with Shaka. Who cares.

Interestingly, all other civs are absolute pushovers. Pityful poor and ways behind in tech. No tech trading.

Arrian seems to be unhappy with his achievements. Wish him to catch up soon .

Sir Ralph
________________

Theseus wrote on 07-06-2002 04:40:

No game progress for me... but now that you're thinking of the super-continent, how tempting is the east coast??!!
________________

Sir Ralph wrote on 07-06-2002 03:30:

I have no plans for a soon conquest, but if I do, England (mid of the continent between China and Zululand looks promising. They have silks, grapes and a good strategic position China-wise. If I have England as bridgehead, a quick broad-ranged blow to behead China is better possible than with a one-spot landing.

Sir Ralph, who had 5 hours of sleep... oh well.
________________

Arrian wrote on 07-06-2002 08:47:

"Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years!" = LL Cool J.

Theseus,

I played for hours last night. I sailed north, landed in India, and began methodically wiping them out. Towards the end of that, I got a leader, who was shipped home to make a forbidden just west of Washington.

I hooked up the Indian luxuries and went republic, and right around that time I managed a suicide galley run to make contact with Rome. Uh-oh. After paying through the nose for contact with China (galley sunk right after making contact) and then trading around maps and making embassies and such, I watched the AI build Sun Tzu, Leo's, the Sistine and Copernicus in quick succession. At this point, I was NOT a happy camper. But then I made a roaring comeback, building Bach, Smiths, Newton and Magellan. As I neared the end of the medieval era, Caesar dropped off a lone archer and attacked me. My Samurai responded, and *WOW* what a golden age. I paid off Shaka and Mao to help grind Rome down, and eventually ended up capturing Rome (Dyes and Leo's, yay!) and several other northern Roman cities. I also snuck in a city in former English territory (China killed them) and stole a silk source via culture. That makes 6 luxuries. I built up my military on the other continent in preparation to attack the Zulu (I have a MPP/RoP with China) so I can take Antium (Sistine Chapel) and Iswalasomethingorother (furs). I have also industrialized, built Univ Suffrage (leader from Roman war), ToE and Hoover.

Vital Stats:

1440 AD

Score: 2514 (China 2nd with 1124)
Japanese Democracy
Researching Corporation
Approval rating: 99%
Population 22,668,000
Land: 117,600

I can't be very far from domination. I have about 20 Cavalry sitting in Rome, backed with Infantry and some artillery, which I intend to pit against Zululand's rifles and knights (AI didn't research Mil. Tradition). I on the other hand, ignored nationalism. Worst case scenario is that I bog down and wait for Tanks to finish it off.

-Arrian
________________

Theseus wrote on 07-06-2002 09:31:

Wow, you've gotten much further than me now.

Q: Was China the dominant civ on the supercontinent?
_______________

Arrian wrote on 07-06-2002 09:37:

Well, when I first made contact, they were the #2 civ in the world, but Rome was a solid #3. Hell, this may be the first game I've seen where Rome built the Sistine and Leos. But then Caesar was stupid and attacked me (I was planning on hitting one of the weaker civs, England or Zululand... though England didn't last long enough for me to get navigation). Now it's just China and Zululand (Rome has 1 city offshore, so they don't count).

-Arrian
________________


Sir Ralph wrote on 07-06-2002 17:12:

Theseus, Arrian,

just a short report from Bavaria. I invaded England and captured all but one city. Somehow, I hope to win this game with all civs surviving. Captures the Great Wall and the Lighthouse. Got a leader and used it instantly on the Universal suffrage. That was a huge blunder, as 3 turns later the Chinese beat me on Theory of Evolution, 4 turns before I could complete it myself. Bleh! I had gotten par in tech and was again behind. I could save the shields (palace switch) and used them a few turns later on the Hoover dam. After I completed it, I traded techs with Mao and could again break even. Now my killer economy begins to work. I make techs in 4-5 turns, he is significantly slower, as I squeeze him dry by selling four luxuries. As my industrialization is over, I'm producing lots of Infantries and Artilleries now and will ship them to ex-England. Soon the showdown begins.

It's 1430 AD. I'm leading with 2345, next China with 1302, then the pathetic Zulus 692. Then the others. Last is Abe, playing OCC, with 289.

Another funny thing I noticed. Mao has no oil.

Bwahahahahahaha!!

Sir Ralph
________________

Sir Ralph wrote on 07-06-2002 20:54:

Ok, it's 2:30am and I go to bed.

After my last post, I started to build Infantries and Artilleries, to mass them up against China. It was 1430AD, and I just had broken even in tech with China. But 1450AD the unexpected happened. Rome and Zululand sent big stacks of Riflemen and Cavalries towards my expeditional forces in former England (mostly Cavs), at the same time! As would they have a secret alliance! Amazing. My chances were bad. Zululand and China had a MPP, so if I would attack the Zulus, I would have China against me as well. I bribed Mao with 575 gold (he wanted Steel, but... pah!) and made a MPP. Right in time. The next turn, the hell broke lose...

I love Civ3. In no other game I enjoyed such a great show. HUGE stacks of AI-forces fighting each other. My forces among them. I sent Transport after Transport of Infantries and Artilleries. I will remember the bloody battle between Brighton and Canterbury. It took about 5 turns, with awful casualties at all sides. The true Battle of Nations. Mao saved my butt, and I have shipped enough forces over for a comfortable counterattack. I will fight it tomorrow. I already have made my 7th luxury. Tomorrow I get the 8th, grabbing the Dyes around Rome.

I wanted to kill China. Not an issue anymore. I have a 3-tech lead, and they are an anarchy. Probably going commie. I will keep the alliance, wipe out Zululand and Rome, hopefully it's enough for a domination.

A funny footnote: Mao bribed Liz (playing OCC now) for an alliance. Among our big stacks of Cavalries, Riflemen and Infantries fights a lone English Spearman. It's funny. He managed to survive so far...

Good night . Tomorrow will be a great day. I just discovered Motorized Transportation

Sir Ralph

[Theseus]

Theseus wrote on 09-06-2002 05:23:

Great!! Can't wait to see the SAVs.

I played through a lot tonight too; same thing, took England (except the OCC... the little island, yes?), went the other direction, attacking China.

I have, in both my and Arrian's conception, overwhelming advantage. I'm tempted to quit, but too much fun... so I'm experimenting with "dismantling" a civ. I'm not capturing or razing Chinese cities... I'm destroying their production. Pillaging all resources and mining. In the meantime, I've gotten Rome and Zulu into military alliances, and I'm giving them stuff like Saltpeter, Rubber, Military Tradition, and Replaceable Parts (!!!!).

I will see Mao stripped and abused.

I'm going to send you both some SAVs tomorrow.
________________

Sir Ralph wrote on 09-06-2002 05:08:

My game is over. I changed my plans concerning China, staying in an alliance (MPP) with Mao and conquered both Rome and Zululand, beginning with inf/arty and finishing with tanks. Mao also took a couple of cities, but since he had no tanks, I was faster in most cases. After this, I was pretty close to domination. I finished the English OCC off and invaded the northern island. After I took the 3rd Indian city there, domination triggered. Victory year 1620, score 4796.

My tech race with Mao was won with luring him into the war. I stayed 34 turns in war with my democracy, but since I gained 2 new luxuries (had all 8 then) and the Sistine (in Rome city) during the campaign, I suffered no riots. Mao went commie (surprise, surprise) and stopped his research entirely. In the end, I had 2 modern techs (Fission and Rocketry), while Mao was still (not) researching Steel.

Not my best game overall scorewise, but what concerns the fun factor, one of those I will long remember. I will pack some SAVs together and send you both.

Sir Ralph
________________

Arrian wrote on 09-06-2002 12:11:

It's a blast, isn't it? You are getting a glimpse of what "ultimate power" is like. Imagine being so far ahead that you can actually build a fleet of 25 privateers and destroy 3 civs navies with them. I did that once... man, was it fun.

I haven't played since my last report (1440, preparing to attack Zululand), but I will today. Time for the endgame.

-Arrian
________________

Sir Ralph wrote on 10 Jun 2002 16:58:30:

Hi Theseus and Arrian,

here is a savegame collection from my tourney game.

10AD - 2nd turn of the 1st American campaign. Two cities taken, the army
moves forth. Swordsmen in the mountainous range only, Horsemen everywhere.

1000AD - Mid of the Indian campaign, fought it with Samurai.

1250AD - Entered the Industrial age. Peaceful development.

1330AD - Before the landing operation in England, still at peace. 20
Cavalries at 5 Galleons.

1450AD - The Roman/Zulu coordinated sneak attack. Still at peace, but about
time for a MPP with China (as they have one with Zululand).

1500AD - After defending against the sneaky attackers and the bloody battle
in the hills between Brighton and Canterbury (replay it, you will love it),
the first city gains. The military production in the homeland has begun, and
the first transports with Infantry and Artillery arrived.

1615AD - Domination achieved.

Looking forward to the next one.
________________

Catt wrote on 11-06-2002 18:09:
(This PM is going to Theseus, Arrian & Sir Ralph, and I apologize for its length in advance )

Don’t know if Theseus mentioned it, but he invited me into the game as well. I played this weekend, finishing up Sunday night. Don’t have my saves with me at work, so doing this from memory, but wanted to share how my game progressed – and, more importantly, want to find out how yours did!

First, the starting position. Although I have played a fair number of games of Civ3, I have never before had a starting position on a river with three wheat stalks packed in close. It actually screwed up my early build style because my pop was growing so quickly I needed to keep popping settlers and workers just to control happiness.

I explored early of course, noted the two choke points to the north-east, stationed warriors there to block Abe. Eventually built cities on the choke points. I then concentrated on building my empire – essentially settling all of the land west of the chokepoints. Meanwhile building up horsies and swordsmen – I didn’t build a massive force of warriors or chariots and then upgrade the way Arrian does and I sometimes do – probably upgraded 4 or 5 warriors – everything else built from scratch. I was actually pretty frustrated that only Abe and I had contact (kept checking for communications trading opportunities, but didn’t find any) – in my experience this dooms me to being at least three or four techs behind the other continent or continents, and I also wasn’t going to be able to beat up on three or four civs to extort techs but more importantly, generate GLs.

First war with Abe around 0 AD IIRC, using horsies and swordsman. My goals were: (1) generate a GL; (2) inflict some damage on Abe; (3) take the incense east of the chokepoints which Abe had grabbed just ahead of me; and (4) if and only if Abe completed an interesting wonder before the war’s conclusion, take that wonder. First three goals accomplished in about 10-15 turns; Abe hadn’t built his wonder so I stopped short of Washington. Conquered approximately 6 cities (three were unfortunately auto-razed, but I had settlers ready). I made peace after taking approximately half of “Abe’s” continent. Used the GL to build my FP right in the center of “Abe’s” continent – about 5 or 6 tiles from Washington. I was feeling very good about the game at this point, because I now had a huge advantage over Abe and felt I had my FP built in an ideal location. Just hoped that another civ wasn’t absolutely dominating the other continent or continents.

Bumped into Gandhi shortly after the war. Depressed to see he was even further behind than Abe. Noticed all the jungle on Gandhi’s continent, and started to realize my “shared” continent could conceivably be without coal or rubber. Culture flipped an American city down on the southern tip of Abe’s half of the continent.

Exactly twenty turns after my peace treaty, I went to work on Abe again. Took (1) Washington, where Abe had built the Oracle ()during our brief interlude of peace, (2) the city north of Washington with the luxuries (yea , more ivory), “Atlanta” in my game, (3) two additional smaller cities, and (4) generated my second GL – built an army, made army victorious (for HE and MA), made peace. BTW, Abe suckered Gandhi into an alliance against me. Never saw an Indian galley or an Indian land unit. Never attacked Gandhi, but I was still able to make peace with Gandhi after peace with Abe, at considerable cost to Gandhi.

By this time, I see my biggest game challenge as the lack of luxuries. With only 2 different luxuries on our continent, I knew I would have to do some cross-ocean invading (which I hate to do until combustion and 8-unit transports) or some serious trading later in the game. Thankfully Abe had built the Oracle for me – I really didn’t need the Pyramids or one of the other early wonders.

Some turns later, I am informed that England has built the Great Lighthouse. Soon meet an English galley. Traded maps with England, and communications. I am lucky enough to be the first civ in our half of the world that England finds. In a series of trades, all on my turn, I trade maps and communications with all players, netting a fair amount of gold and tech (sure enough, I was at least four or five techs behind, because I am just beginning work on feudalism, and China and England are building Leo’s Workshop). Of the AI civs, China and England are the strongest civs, Rome the weakest. A little surprised to see that I had a pretty sizeable score lead on the histograph this early in the game. I chalk it up to the fabulous start and the great FP placement / timing.

Time to go to war with Abe for the last time – I plan on destroying him as he is now hopelessly behind in tech / gold (and therefore no use as an ATM) and his ugly baby blue is making MY continent look less than perfect. Unfortunately, Abe has built one small city way up north on the island north of Gandhi -- Gandhi has built four or five cities there, England two cities. I go to war with Abe, using my samurai’s (and triggering my GA), generate a GL right away, rush build Sistine – was tempted to do Leo’s because I really like that wonder, but with my religious civ (and therefore cheap cathedrals) and the lack of local luxuries, I figure I really need to build Sistine. Ally with Gandhi so I won’t have to go up north for that one crappy city. Wipe Abe of my continent just before 1000 AD, but Gandhi is doing absolutely nothing. Eventually load a caravel with three samurai and head north, capturing Abe’s last city (thanks for the help Gandhi , just like you helped Abe against me ) about 1100 AD IIRC. During this final war with America, I generated my third (and last ) GL (which I used on Sistine) in the first or second battle. Probably fought 25 – 30 more battles with “fresh” elite units without generating another GL (even with HE done).

My GA allows me to build cathedrals, marketplaces, libraries, universities, harbors, and aqueducts where needed – love the timing of a Japanese GA. After Abe is gone, I am #1 in virtually all of the demographics, although my military is still considered “average” to China’s (stronger than everyone else). I beeline for Economics and Democracy and am able to build Smith’s without a leader. I didn’t worry about getting to Military Tradition quickly and exploiting the use of cavalry before anyone else – I was alone on my continent, and inter-continental invasions using caravels or galleons (1) posed no threat to me, and (2) are brutally painful for me to undertake as the aggressor – I just don’t have the patience to build a fleet of galleons and move units over in groups of four. Also ended up building Magellan’s without really trying (just put a coastal city on it on the off-chance I could build it, thoroughly expecting to have to switch to a university). Now, with the largest population, the largest territory by far, in a democracy with a well-placed FP, I figure the game is a shoo-in, even though the tech race is still fairly close between me, China and England.

Turns out that my taking of Abe’s city on the island up north was a great stroke of luck. Gandhi has no iron. There is an iron resource within Abe’s (now my) borders. If Gandhi had honored his military alliance and aggressively attacked Abe's isolated outpost, he could have taken this iron resource. Foolish Gandhi. Throughout the remainder of the game, I trade surplus iron to Gandhi at exorbitant rates (generally for his gems and dyes). BTW, I am pretty sure that he had war elephants before I got to the city, and when I got there Abe was defending with two spearmen – no evidence of even any pillaging by Gandhi.

Okay, at this point I am in clear control, and the only issues are: (1) do I invade the other continents, and where; and if the answer is yes, then (2) what are the objectives – land and a domination /conquest victory?, land for a higher score?, a stable, “local” supply of gems, furs, wines, silks, dyes, etc.? Have I mentioned before that I hate to invade across oceans without 8-unit transports? I settle into builder mode and beeline for Theory of Evolution. In the meantime I am happy to learn that my continent has one source of coal, and happier still to learn that it is located in Atlanta’s city radius – Atlanta also has iron, so Iron Works here I come. I trade for Military Tradition, but delay building the Military Academy until the Iron Works is done, so that I can build the MA in my IW city. Nab ToE, Nab Hoover, work the other side of the tech tree. Finally get combustion and start building transports. Build tanks. Throughout all this time I am able to trade (at not too painful a price for enough luxuries so that I always have 7 or all 8 working for me. So a war is not per se needed, but perhaps advisable just so I control the luxuries.

Before invading, I decide that since I have warred with Abe three times, and have not allied or MPP'd with anyone accept Gandhi briefly, that the UN represents a real threat to me. I decide to prepare for my invasion, but also decide that I must build the UN before attacking. After researching Fission, I move back down the tech tree to research Amphibious Warfare, planning to use marines to take three English coastal cities, each of which controls a luxury (silk, wine, dye). As I am building the last of my invasion force for the assault, England declares war on China. China allies with Zulu, India, and eventually Rome, and before I can even get my invasion force across the sea, China controls the cities I wanted to take. I decide to hold off on attacking China (even though I feel I am stronger) – through the use of subs, I watched China attack with stacks of 50+ infantry, a type of warfare I find uninteresting and painfully slow, and decide to either (1) wait for mech inf, or (2) take India. Continue as builder. Gandhi, because of a lack of iron, is always willing to trade me his gems and dyes -- and he doesn't have anything else I want. Discover Computers. Build Seti, upgrade all infantry (but it takes many turns to do this, as I don’t have Leo and I am keeping my science research high). At this point, I decide “the hell with it” – I’ll build the spaceship and end it rather than launch a world war (which will add several days of to the length of the game as I don’t get a lot of “play time”).


End up launching in 1796, with a final score of +/- 3800. Until the final decisive war between England and the rest of the world (except me), the AI civs were relatively well-balanced, with England and China ahead, Zulu and India pulling up close behind, and Rome a not-too-distant third. India was hampered by having no iron; Zulu was hampered by having no oil; Rome was hampered in many ways. IIRC, just a few turns before I launched, England was finally wiped out by China and Zulu – but the war extracted a heavy cost on the AI research efforts. By the end, I had pulled away, IIRC no one else had even discovered Ecology or any of the “second tier” modern age techs (like Space Flight).

I have never scored more than 4000 or so on Monarch (but don’t really try to maximize score either), so this was a pretty good game for me. I suspect I play much more of a builder style than the three of you. I am not necessarily interested in maximizing my score, but am curious as to how different my score could have been with a massive invasion and an earlier land grab (given that territory is so important to scoring). So, even though I finished the game, I have gone back and reloaded from about the time I discover amphibious warfare, and I am going to invade England / China without bothering to build the UN first -- I didn't realize that there wasn't a scientific civ in the game, and so my fear of losing the UN to someone else was probably overblown. Besides, I just want to see how that decision point affects (1) game enjoyment; (2) game end date; and (3) game score.

I’ve seen a few of your posts in the forums about your games, but would love more detail. I am impressed with your patience and ability to invade across continents with Galleons (or so it sounds as if you’ve all done). I suggested to Theseus that if we do this again, that we start a thread in the Off-Topic forum to share notes / stories, instead of being somewhat hampered with PM or email.

Catt
________________

Arrian wrote on 11-06-2002 21:16:
Gentlemen,

First off, glad to see you joined us, Catt. Well done. I hope one of the others forwarded my reports to you... I only just removed my head from my ass and figured out how to send a PM to multiple people. Bah.

Anyway, I proceeded as planned, and attacked the Zulu. The counterattack triggered my MPP with China. Zululand lasted four turns. China mostly razed, and I pumped out some settlers to grab the empty land. I rushed temples and cathedrals for the culture expansion, and I also removed the silly Caesar man from the game, leaving only Mao and me. Finally, in 1525, after a couple of border expansions and a couple of new cities, I won via domination: 4944 score.

I think the major difference between my game and the others was that I hit Abe too early, razing all but three American cities, and gaining no GLs. Yikes. But then again, my early invasion of India (circa 200AD or so) helped redress things a bit, and got me my GL for the FP. I ended up capturing the Pyramids, Leos and the Sistine. THAT was probably a first. During my destruction of Rome and then Zululand, my homeland was booming. Most of my cities reached sizes 14-16 by game's end.

At the end I was 2 turns from combustion, and had near total control... hence domination, I suppose. China was still running around with Riflemen and Riders. Killing them would have been bloody, but definitely doable.

As for your suggestion, Catt, I propose such a thread would be better suited for the Stories and Tales forum rather than OT. Perhaps even Strategy, if we're willing to put in the effort of adding periodic updates with screenshots and analysis.

I enjoyed our little tournament. I'd be up for doing another one sometime soon.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

My story:

Crushed the Americans underfoot by 30-40AD. Buh-bye. I captured the Pyramids in Washington, and I got lucky with GLs, so FP in Washington and Great Lighthouse in New York (I usually never build that, but I knew I wouldn;t need Armies anytime soon, and that whoever had the Lighthouse would gain considerable advantage)(God, I can;t believe I just said I wouldn;t need Armies!!). Unfortunately, I razed Atlanta, and when I built a new city there, I moved it one tile SW... so the only place I could later build the IW was Madras, which was impossible. Lesson learned: replacement cities get placed EXACTLY where the AI had'em. I probably should have abandoned the city I had built, and re-build where Atlanta was, but I didn;t think of it.

So now I go into MASSIVE builder mode, sole owner of MY continent. Felt like Civ2. Built almost everything I could within the limits of known tech. I also started building GWs like a champ, Colossus and Great Library, the hard way (and many more later).

I had a lot of Workers, so I automated 90% of'em... earliest I've ever done that. Also built 7-8 galleys, and set them off to explore, also automated.

On to India. I get the sense I attacked them differently, in that I started with a 2-prong Samurai attack in the north... I wanted Delhi, and I wanted to cut their territory in two. Also, all that jungle negated the Samurai 2 move advantage. They still only had Spearmen, so my forces made sushi out of them. I left them alone on the northernmost island as a vassal.

Because now I had seen.... China. The only threat in the game. I soon met the rest of the gang too. Evidently Shaka and Caesar didn;t like each other much, and I think Liz could live without Impis too.

I spent a lot of time just looking at that map, figuring out my research, buildings, and my attack. This game should have been called "Resource Wars."

Navigation, so I could upgrade all those galleys. Military Trad, to upgrade all vet Samurai, and to build the Academy. Some GW techs (built Sistine, Shakespeare, Bach, Smith's, Universal, TOE, and Hoover).

And across the blue seas we go... two prongs, one for England (buh-bye, except for a crap OCC way south), and one for just Pompeii (a king needs fur). Vet Cavs and elite Samurai... that is a nasty one-two punch. Oh, and two 2X Samurai + 1X Cav Armies (yeaaah, baby).

OK, here's where we diverge. If you remember, I specifically set up this game to create a killer AI civ... well, I don;t know if I'd call China quite that, but it worked pretty good.

And I'm not gonna step up to the challenge?

First, I create a fortified Maginot Line across the continent at the southern end of what was England. One Infantry and one Samurai in each mountain fort, and the same plus one of my Armies in the one grassland tile to the northwest.

So now I need Infantry, Tanks, and Arty. Researched at a huge deficit (like 100-150gps negative), and as soon as I had Infantry I mobilized. Whew boy! I also built the Pentagon, to add a Tank to the first two Armies (2 Sams, 1 Cav, and 1 Tank... I'll take that).

Now, at this point I knew I had totally overwhelming momentum... so I decided to experiment a little.

While I'm gearing up, which took a while, I also built my first massive Navy. Fun and games with Privateers... built about 15-20, and destroyed China's fleet. Huge numbers of Ironclads, some Destroyers, and 14, count'em 14 Battleships.

The point? When I went to war with China, between the fleet and some Army-led pillaging incursions, I destroyed Chinese access to EVERY resource and bonus tile in their territory. I also cut of maybe 4-5 cities from their road network. As they ran out of Cav and Infantry, I had reduced them to counter-attacking with Longbowmen!!

Finished them off with Bombers... note to self: Look at enemy city spacing; if more than 5 tiles, Arty can sometimes be too slow. It was unbelievable how quicky I was able to build an air force.

In one of the last battles, I FINALLY got another GL, and built a Palace in Warwick.

Final stats:
Won: 1756
Score: 5031 (who cares)
Military:
Infantry: 104
Samurai: 4 (in Armies)
Cavs:19
Tanks: 65
Arty: 40
Ironclads: 33
Destroyers:5
Battleships: 14
Fighters: 13
Bombers: 76
Armies: 5
Cities: 67
Pop: 64+ million
Top 5 Cities: 4

MasterCard Feeling: I'm king of the world, Ma, king of the world I tell ya!!

Couple thoughts:

Religious is GREAT for domination, including the ability to rapidly gain territory through culture-driven expansion. Militaristic players: MOBILIZE. Even your worst production captured cities can effectively build Barracks and Harbors.

I'm going to automate much earlier... the negative effect is negligible, esp. if you keep maybe 10-15% of Workers as special teams.

Must have 8 luxuries, must have 8 luxuries, must have....

Very fun game.

[Catt]

Great games all. I will try and post some of my .sav's tomorrow for any interested.

I have reloaded from the time I built the UN -- if I had let the vote go forward I would have lost in a landslide to Mao -- so it was a smart decision to hold off.

I am still replaying my intercontinental invasion alternate game path. I'm not sure it will add anything to score or to the end of game time (looks like I will have domination before I launched in the real game, but not by much). Has been fun, but the invasion and conquering has taken longer "real time" than the previous 5500 years of "game time" took!

One of the key things I learned from your games was the value of launching galleys across the oceans / seeking to learn more about the map at all costs. Even if they sink, eventually one might get through, and the benefits of an early contact with the "new world" is huge.

I looked more closely at my hall of fame, and my best score on Monarch is 4100+ (on a standard map -- have been playing standard and smaller for a while now on my PII 450 or 400 laptop, even though I really like a huge map with 16 civs). All three of you at around 5000 (and Arrian's previous games posted at around 6000) are really impressive!

Theseus, I'm not sure if this map produced a "killer civ" -- it seems that China was strong in all of our games. But perhaps the killer civ was the human! I play any start I get, and as I said to you in a PM, although I have played a fair number of Civ3 games, I have never started both on a river and with 3 wheat stalks within the initial 9 tile city grid. If an AI had started in this position, might have produced the true killer civ . . . I very much like the effort to produce a killer foe.

Catt

[Arrian]

Theseus,

Good work getting this thread up. I feel bad, but I have only the 1440AD save which I posted in the "God favors the Mighty" thread. I have this bad habit of getting really immersed in the game and forgetting all about saving it periodically. Plus, you must have autosave turned off, because mine is usually on, but was off from the moment I started playing our tourney game... except I didn't notice that until the end. My bad, my bust. Next time I'll save at regular intervals/key events.

I totally agree about religious = easier domination.

It's funny, I think you all played this out longer than I did. I got to the mid-industrial era, had a look at my armed forces, looked at Zululand, and figured "why not?" Game over.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Yeah, I coulda played it faster... but I wanted beef with broccoli.

[Harovan]

I also could have finished faster, but my main goal was to catch up in tech, thus, building infrastructure instead of units was a must. And it took me about 100 years to ship my Samurai from the Indian island to the main, upgrade them, upgrade my Galleys and Caravels and ship my army over to invade. After this, pretty much all went automatically. I got sneak attacked by Romans and Zulus in the same turn in the same city! I never had that before! The killer was to drag my competitors in a MPP driven war. They went communist, and my research problems were gone. I could have had this earlier, if I had shipped my units instantly after discovering Navigation (since I already had the map).

But as was said, this game was less about dates and scores, but about comparing playstyles and - mostly - to have fun. Which was greatly achieved.

[Velociryx]

Great reads all 'round! And if you decide to have another of these, let me know...sounds...fantastic!

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Vel,

Yeah, it was fun. I played out a game I otherwise probably would not have. When just playing for my own amusement, I only play out games that are going really well. Many games that are very winnable are not played out, because I simply lose interest in them. I know I can win them, but have no desire to.

But knowing that Theseus, Sir Ralph and Catt were all playing it and hearing their reports spurred me onward. In the end, I was nearly as dominant as I become in games that go perfectly (nearly, but not quite... Theseus came closest to ultimate power in this one).

I think my golden age timing had something to do with the comparatively early end date for my game. My GA came later than normal - I was nearly done with the middle ages. It was therefore more powerful than normal, in terms of the money and shields generated, as my empire was better developed (downside being I lost the opportunity to build several key wonders I normally get). The result was that my modest tech lead became a big one, I saved $6000 while getting tech every 4 turns, and I industrialized really quickly. Once you're industrial, the AI has HAD IT. I ignored Nationalism (ended the game w/o it), went for Replaceable Parts, and only then doubled back for Military Tradition. The only reason I did that is that I realized that the AI was only just coming up on nationalism, and hadn't made any attempt at Mil. Tradition themselves. Otherwise, I'd have gone straight for Tanks.

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Catt
I am still replaying my intercontinental invasion alternate game path. I'm not sure it will add anything to score or to the end of game time (looks like I will have domination before I launched in the real game, but not by much). Has been fun, but the invasion and conquering has taken longer "real time" than the previous 5500 years of "game time" took!

I'm going to abandon my invasion replay. I've wiped out India, England and Rome (China did not go to war with England the second time around). I think its just a matter of a few cultural border expansions to trigger domination. Zulu have a total of what must be 100+ of my modern armour / elite tanks on either side of their territory and no access to oil; China is still strong, but no match for my army. It's simply taking too long to play each turn of warfare -- too many units to move in a game that I already won and am replaying.

I did get to see a stack of doom from China consisting of 124 units (about half and half mech infantry and infantry, with a smattering of rifleman and longbowman) -- this in addition to a couple of dozen cavalry running around.

All in all a very fun game -- I haven't played any of the GOTM, but this was a lot of fun playing and then comparing games.

Catt

[Catt]

SAVs

A collection of early game saves. One showing some preparations for first war (don't have a save closer to the start of war), and three saves that I think are only a turn or two after the conclusion of my three wars with America.

Catt

[Catt]

SAVs

A pair of later saves. One from 1345 when I'm very close to building Theory of Evolution and pulling away with the tech lead, a second from 1670 -- Liz attacks Mao on the next turn and starts the catastrophic AI war.

BTW, these saves are all after I've "finished" my turn, meaning, my next action, had I not saved, was to hit space bar to go to next turn.

Catt

[nbarclay]

When I saw the starting position, I was torn between a militaristic "archers explore" opening in the hope of hitting an opponent early and a "settler pump" strategy trying to grab land as quickly as possible. I decided on the latter, researching pottery and building what would ultimately become a grainary before I even started exploration. I didn't produce anything but granaries, workers, and settlers until my third city. Fortunately, the barbarians didn't cause too much trouble too early.

Ultimately, my first two cities became high-speed settler pumps (with Kyoto churning one out every four turns). My land grab reached south of the chokepoints between me and America, with more settlers on their way.

Then America decided to attack, and I still had practically no military. The ^$#@s captured one city, destroyed another, and forced me to waste some population rush building before I could get my military feet under me. But when I did, America paid. I ended up destroying the city they captured (it couldn't survive recapture) and took out two American cities (also too small to survive capture) before letting America buy a peace treaty. By the way, one of the cities I leveled was their potential iron source . Later, I renegotiated the treaty a time or two to get extra gold to fund my research.

Finally, sometime around 300 AD (I didn't log this game as well as I often do), my research rate got enough better than America's that I decided I could afford to annihilate my ancient enemies. (I had already built a Forbidden Palace in Edo between the cattle and wheat near the chokepoint, so at least some of the captured territory would be productive. The idea behind the placement was that it will keep my original core reasonably productive if I later move my palace to another continent. Plus, I could build it there "the hard way".)

I took all America's cities, getting my second great leader and therewith the Sistine Chapel in the process. (My first leader, from the first war, had built an archer army so I could build the Heroic Epic.) America is still alive, though, thanks to a settler and spearman on a galley (which have now landed along the ice south of Kyoto). And they'll stay alive until either the peace treaty expires or I decide to break it; after that... (I made peace after taking their last city because war weariness was costing gold I wanted to put into research.)

The year is now 480 AD, and I have to decide whether to make science or war my priority. My best order might be (1) Finish Education next turn, (2) Go back and pick up Chivalry, and (3) learn Banking, and maybe a bit more, while I'm building up my forces for an attack on India. Then I can use the golden age that results from the war to build up my economy more quickly. (And I should have lots of gold left over for rush building since I can already do four-turn research at only a small deficit even without a golden age.)

By the way, India is just now ready to start moving into the medieval age, although they don't have Republic or Monarchy yet. Part of my temptation to break my peace treaty with America and take the Americans out early comes from the fact that America has some tech that India doesn't have yet, so India can probably get it pretty cheaply if they can ever come up with a suitable price.

This is an interesting map to play. I'll be interested to see what the other civs are like when I encounter them. The fact that no one is building Sun Tsu's or Leonardo's yet is an encouraging sign (not that I have Invention yet myself, but I have the prerequisites).

Nathan