AU506 - DAR1: 4000BC-2150BC

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
It is WAR!

[Morrissey]

OK then, here goes. Long time lurker, first time poster (in the AU forum at least).
I've decided to jump in on this AU game as it's so different to how I usually play (kinda the point of this thing, innit?). I find it very difficult to force myself to keep building units, I like my buildings plus I'm quite hopeless at waging war. Anyway...

Stock game, regent - was going to try Monarch, as currently trying to move to that level, but this is too different to how I play and I'm a big chicken.
Founded on the spot, like I do in 95% of my games and started to research the Wheel at 80% science. I want horsies if we're having early warfare.
3550 - Settler from hut to the north, start to move settler south as it's a bit far from Zimbabwe to be of any use this early
3450 - CB from hut
3350 - founded Ulundi from settler hut with plans to have another city between that and Zimbabwe
3300 - Mongols find me, both have the same things
- I find Maya, they won't trade masonary for CB and pottery, the tight fisted fools.
3100 - Find Babylon, trade BW + 10g for pottery
2310 - Trade masonary for wheel with Maya. I can't remember when I researched the wheel, but sometime between then and now and then started on HBR
2150 - Find China + France (How many AI are there?). France won't trade Alpha (only have pottery which they don't) and China has nothing at all.

Nothing interesting has really happened so far, here's a picture of the homeland. Who's going to be the first to tell me to build more workers? If you do, please consider that I've done DAR 2 as well, so you might as well tell me there . I know we're supposed to start a war very early, but how are you supposed to do it effectivly at this stage.... guess should read and find out.
And to answer question No. 6 in Dom's post, yes of course I have the game, how else would I be able to post this?

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Morrissey
Who's going to be the first to tell me to build more workers? If you do, please consider that I've done DAR 2 as well, so you might as well tell me there

I will, I will

Build more Workers!

At the end of DAR1 I have 2 domestic Workers and 3 slave Workers, and that's not enough for my liking.

Also if you haven't already done so, build at least 1 and preferably 2 Granaries fairly early. It's so hard coping with the pop cost of building Settlers and Workers with a low food start, that Granaries become even more essential.

Anyway, welcome aboard Morrissey, and good luck

[Cryptor]

Sid Level, AU Mod

After moving my scout west then north, and my worker south, I noticed the cows. I moved my settler west and settled there. I built a scout before starting on a granary, despite building the scout before, I still finished the granary two turns before reaching size three, so I got the granary bonus early. I then built a scout and an impi, and brought a nearby exploring scout back near my territory. These three units blocked a foreign settler settling near where Ulundi would be, which was founded by a settler I build next. In the meantime, my exploring scouts gained two warriors and allowed me to trade for techs so I now have all first level techs except alphabet and the wheel, and also two slaves from tech deals, and one for gold + gpt. I built another settler straight after the first which allowed me to found Bapidi. My next settler is going to found a city on the hill tile north of the capital probably. I'm not focused on tech at the moment, running at 10%, I'm just trying to get as much territory as possible before the sid AI takes it all.

I'll keep expanding as quickly as possible, at the moment keeping city radii largely not overlapping, but I'll squish a few cities near the edge of my empire later on. I'll try to avoid placing them in the radius of foreign cities, to avoid potential flips.

[Cryptor]

Sid Level, AU Mod (continued)

Power Graph

[Dominae]

Nice to see we have at least one Sid-level AU "student".

Enjoy (and good luck!), Cryptor.

[joncnunn]

No picture manager, but did get Paint to save as jpegs.
Lots of them on my personal machine. They seem to be much more reasonable file sizes.

Originally posted by Dominae

Sorry, I just realised I resized it with MS Picture Manager. Do you have that? Saving as JPEG you can do in Paint; just change the file type (from BMP) in the "Save As..." window.

[Modo44]

joncnunn, I suggest you get IrfanView (link). It's free, fast, and good enough for simple screenies.


On to business:

AU Mod, Emperor level

One thing up front. As I'm used to building high, and doing maximum research, I'd probably be inclined to try this even with the Zulu. So I added restrictions, to keep that out of my head. I will not build any Wonders, nor science buildings (Libraries, and on). Also, research will be at minimum (a scientist, or 10-20%) all the time.

4000 BC
Change game options.
Worker moves 7.
Scout moves 62.
Settle on the spot. I can surely use the cash, and I won't be lacking production, so I can keep the Hill occupied.
Zimbabwe starts a Scout. Will probably make two, but I'm not sure yet. Maybe the second city will take over.
Research started on Alphabet, 20%.

3950 BC
Worker starts a Road. No use in a Chop, as the Game is on a Plains tile.
Scout moves south. Finds high-production city spots, and a hut.

3900 BC
Scout pops the hut, and we get Ceremonial Burial. Finds a Cow... He is now south-west from Zimbabwe, so he'll go west.

3800 BC
Scout ready in Zimbabwe, goes north.
Zimbabwe starts another Scout.
The scout going west finds more Cows, and some Grassland. I guess that's my pump, eh?

3700 BC
Scouting to the west reveals some elephant tusks (Ivory), and green-ish people. They call themselves Aztecs.
The other Scout finds Forests, and lots of Bonus Grassland tiles to the north. Some serious production potential...

3600 BC
Third Scout ready. This one goes east.
Zimbabwe starts Barracks. (Then Settler, and then Granary. Going for a Barracks city ASAP.)

3500 BC
Scouting east, a hut gets popped. We get a city. It is called Sugar Valley.
Sugar Valley gets this build queue: Warrior (MP), Worker, Barracks, Units.
Scouting to the north, we find the blue people. They say they are the Maya. We get Masonry from them for things we know.
Scouting to the west, a sea is discovered. The Scout turns north.
Some onther green-ish people approach Zulu lands from the south. They call themselves Mongols. We have no units at home.

3350 BC
The Mongols turned away.
Scouting to the east, we find a Jungle, and pop a Warrior from a hut. He is sent into the Jungle, to check it out.
More blue people to the north. These call themselves China. We get gold from them.
To make it even, we get some gold from the Aztecs as well.
At this point, my fingers were itching. I wanted to move the science slider all the way up, speeding up Alphabet. But I didn't.

3300 BC
Some pink (ACK ) people exit the Jungle and greet our Warrior. That is France.
They teach us Bronze Working, and Alphabet for things we know. Cool people, actually.
Start research on Writing. Forcing myself to keep it at 10%. Darn, this is hard.
We find 25 gold in a village in the far west.
And meet more jungle people in the east. These are red-skinned, and go by the name of Babylonians.
By the way, our lonely Worker has been busy Roading Game Forests all this time.

3100 BC
There is a Jungle to the east as well. This one has purple people in it, calling themselves the Indians.
To the west, a coast is reached. The Scout turns south.
An Aztec Warrior passes near our lands, and goes north. With a total of 3 Warriors, we're not ready to stop that contact.

2950 BC
Settler done in Zimbabwe. Goes to Zimbabwe 7774, to stop AI contacts using Zulu borders.
Zimbabwe starts a Granary. I don't plan many self-settled cities, but at least it will provide Workers.

2750 BC
The Indians teach us Mysticism for some things we know.
The Babylonians give us Gold for things we know.
Scouts discover, that we won't be able to stop the AIs from contacting each other. We will only delay it.

2590 BC
Sugar Valley finishes Barracks. Impi production commences.

2550 BC
We get the Wheel from China for some things we know.
We happen to have Horses very near Zulu borders. A city is planned to claim them.
With many trades, and no research, we have lots of cash (almost 300 Gold). Too much, actually.

2270 BC
Scout returned from the east, goes south. And finds a Mongol city very near. First target just chose itself.
First Impi commissioned.
Granary ready in Zimbabwe.

2190 BC
The Maya teach us Iron Working for some things we know.
We happen to have Iron in the vicinity of Sugar Valley.
The Aztecs teach us Horseback Riding for Iron Working, and some gold. We will get it back soon enough.
For the gained knowledge, we collect gold from: India, China, Babylon, France.


Status:
The Zulu have 3 cities.
The military is: 3 Workers, 4 Warriors, 1 Impi, 3 Scouts.
The structures are: 1 Granary, 2 Barracks.
We have met all AI civs.
We have discovered most of the pangea.
We have reached tech parity with the leaders (Aztecs, France).
No fights yet.

Plans:
Make a couple more cities (high-priority sites are marked on the screenie), set up a fast-mover force, and start rolling over things. Mongols chose themselves as the first target. Right now I can trade for techs, but I will have to start extorting sooner or later. Will probably aim for Monarchy, to make use of the excess cash my low-research policy brings in. Otherwise, I'd go for Feudalism.

Zululand, 2150 BC:

[Dominae]

I played this game quite a ways in order to test it out, and since these DARs are pretty anemic right now I figure I might as well post my results.

I tried to play as ignorantly as possible, despite my knowledge of the map. The one thing that I could not "forget" was the lack of fresh water around the starting location, so I decided to use this to try something original: join the Worker at 4000BC in order to start with a size 2 capital. Of course I would never have done this without knowledge of the map because the possibility of fresh water turning the start from a "above-average" to "superb" is too great to ignore. I was hoping a couple of players would try this in order to go a-warmongering really early (the capital produces 5spt at size 2), but I guess everyone was allured by the promise of a 4-turn Settler-pump!

By the way, I'm playing Emperor which is lower than I usually play, because my plan is to win this game without ever leaving the Ancient era. Ok, ok, maybe I'll dip into the Medieval for Feudalism, but that's it!

Anyway, on with my report.

4000BC: Scout1 moves 6-2. Settler founds Zimbabwe (Incense connected). Worker joins Zimbabwe to make it size 2, producing 5spt on turn 1! Begin researching Ceremonial Burial at 0% (to improve Goody Hut results).

3900BC: Zimbabwe produces a second Scout. First Scout discovers a Settler hiding in a Goody Hut! Ulundi founded immediately among the Sugar.

I was expecting/hoping that each player would get either an Advanced Tribe or a Settler from one of the many Goody Huts around the capital. But ultimately I had no control over this, so sorry to those who lucked out...

3750BC: 50 Gold from Goody Huts (where are all the techs!?). Contact France. Trade Pottery and Warrior Code to France for Alphabet and 35 Gold.

I trade for Alphabet because it will fetch far more than the smaller techs I give up for it, techs that the AI typically researches before Alphabet anway.

3550BC-3500BC: Contact Aztecs, Babylon, Mongols.

Trades were possible, but I was holding out in order to engage in the slave trade. On a Pangea map with so many civs, there are bound to be Workers available. You just have to check the diplomacy screen every turn to cash in.

3450BC: Trade Alphabet for 2 Slave Workers and 10 Gold. Buy another Slave Worker from France for 104 Gold.

All that Gold that I had been accumulating became handy when France had a Worker for trade, but knew all the techs I did.

3400BC: Ulundi completes Barracks. Masonry from Goody Hut.

3350BC: Zimbabwe completes Granary.

3300BC: Contact India. Trade Warrior Code to India for Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial and 25 Gold.

3250BC: Contact Maya

3050BC: A third town, Bapedi, added to the wonderful Zulu empire. Contact China.

2670BC: Trade Alphabet to China for 1 Slave Worker and 10 Gold.

2550BC: Buy 1 Slave Worker from France for 104 Gold. Trade Ceremonial Burial to Aztecs for 40 Gold. Trade Alphabet and 61 Gold to Babylon for Iron Working. Trade Iron Working to India for The Wheel and 60 Gold. Trade the Wheel to France for 268 Gold (all the Gold spent to buy slaves!). Begin researching Horseback Riding at 100%.

This was, obviously enough, the "big turn" in terms of trading. I now have almost all the Gold in the world, a significant number of foreign Workers improving Zulu lands, and tech parity.

2430BC: Pay 108 Gold to China for 1 Slave Worker.

2390BC: A fourth town, Hlobane, added to the glorious Zulu empire.

2310BC: Pay 224 Gold to Babylon for 2 Slave Workers

Pretty ridiculous, really. I'm going to get all that Gold back once I finish Horseback Riding. At least the AIs are starting to compete in research: some of them have Writing and Mysticism, but I do not.

2230BC: A force of 5 Archers and 1 Impi are ready to terrorize the wicked Mongol people. War will be declared only when excellent Zulu noses smell the Mongol "cultural influence".

2150BC: A fifth town, Iswahdnalarwhatever, added to the supreme Zulu empire.

All in all, I feel things are going well. War will finally break out in about 3-5 turns. Some stats:

Cities: 5
Population: 10
Settlers: 0
Workers: 1 native, 8 foreign!
Granaries: 1
Barracks: 3
Techs: All tier 1, plus Iron Working

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Dominae
I was hoping a couple of players would try this in order to go a-warmongering really early (the capital produces 5spt at size 2), but I guess everyone was allured by the promise of a 4-turn Settler-pump!

Bah, you don't know everything, you know.

I wanted the early Roads, even if I wouldn't find anything to Irrigate. For one, they give cash. For two, they improve transportation a lot - a crucial thing being in a central location. Combined with a fast-mover force, I think this is what won my game.

As to delaying the attack, well... the map could be blamed. If the Zulu would have started in a corner, no additional Scouts would be needed, and the first enemy would have been extremely easy to determine. As it was, scouting was necessary, to set targets. Or so I think.

[Mountain Sage]

AU 506: The Power of Early Warfare
Emperor, stock rules


MS philosophical comments:

What is ‘early warfare’?
Is it launching an Archer attach in 2950BC, then, after conquering some cities, stay put and play it nice until the end?
Or is it a series of oscillating wars, aimed at weakening first, then destroying all other civs?
If so, when is it the ‘right time’ to launch those wars. When we have three cities, five, ten maybe? When the right opportunity arises (but then when is the opportunity ‘right’?).
Maybe an answer is ‘when we are strong enough and technically advanced enough’. If so, this is our tale of Power, war, Conquest and Mayhem…

Part I: The Age of Discovery

4000BC:
We built our capital on the spot, right on tom of the incense. The surrounding land looks promising with grassland, plains, 2 Games and some forests to chop. There is even an oasis east (if it’s not a mirage… ) and some glint of water farther still.

We started to built another Scout. Now that I remember that militaristic civs do not pop barbs from huts, we started to research Bronze Working at 0 turns, as we want to get Alphabet from a hut or a ‘friendly’ civ.

Our Worker starts building a mine in 1 (grassland). Our 1st Scout goes south first, then west.

3950BC:
Our 1st hut gives us Ceremonial Burial, a very useful trading tech.

3800BC:
Our 2nd Scout goes East, and exclaims: ‘Thalassa!, Thalassa!’ (slightly translated, MS comments…).

3750BC:
A friendly Libyan Settler wants to join our Despotism. We won’t contradict this fool’s illusions… Our new Settler will found a village devoted to the hunting of elephants.
We meet the Aztecs, but cannot trade any techs with them (we are ahead with CB).

3650BC:
We met the French tribe and traded Warrior Code and Pottery for the Alphabet and 10 gold. Now we can start researching Writing at top speed.

3600BC: A hut in the Far East gave us a ‘skilled’ Warrior. We completed another scout and started our granary.

We discovered the Mongols. No trade possible, as we are ahead in techs (Alphabet),

3450BC:
We discovered the Babylonians. Traded Alphabet and Warrior Code for Masonry. Traded then Masonry with the Aztecs for 10 gold and 2 Workers.

3250BC:
We met the Mayans. Traded Alphabet and Warrior Code for Bronze Working and 20 gold. Another hut gave us Mysticism.

2850BC:
We discovered the Indians and the Chinese. No trades possible.

2270BC:
Another hut gave us The Wheel. Traded Mysticism and Alphabet for Iron Working and 60 gold with the Mongols, then Mysticism for 50 gold with China., Iron Working for 50 gold with the Mayans.

2230BC:
The Mongols’ town of Ta-Tu is near the only known source of iron in the whole universe… and they refuse to ‘gift’ it to us… our brave 4 Archer units bravely march towards it. War it is!

2150BC:
Techs: Aztecs – Mysticism, France, India, China, Maya and Babylon =.
We have 394 gold and Writing in 17 turns.

The Master’s Questions:
1. Capital: we built it on the spot, as to profit directly of the incense and as there was no better land immediately around.
2. Number of Scouts: 3, back-to-back as to pop some huts (we are expansionists, aren’t we?).
3. Early warfare: strictly utilitarian (to get the iron). With only 2 cities and 4 Archers, you don’t plan extended expeditions…
4. Map: a very twisted map, as our Map Master likes it… no water (except in the French and Aztec lands), so you have to devote one Worker to carry it and you’re in the middle of potential killing civs or later on, AI. Even on this warmongering game, some diplomacy skills will be handy.
5. And, of course, the only useful luxury in this game, ivory, is just at your arm’s reach…
6. Game: if you mean the Civ game, yes, we got it, played it and are now posting our comments...
Ah, you mean maybe the Game with four legs near our capital? Yes, we got it and kept it for the time now in the forests: gives us 2 shields, 2 food and 1 gold per turn per tille per turn.

[Mountain Sage]

Our Empire in 2150BC:

[joncnunn]

I think you mean Expansionist

Originally posted by Mountain Sage

We started to built another Scout. Now that I remember that militaristic civs do not pop barbs from huts,

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
MS philosophical comments:

What is ‘early warfare’?
Is it launching an Archer attach in 2950BC, then, after conquering some cities, stay put and play it nice until the end?
Or is it a series of oscillating wars, aimed at weakening first, then destroying all other civs?
If so, when is it the ‘right time’ to launch those wars. When we have three cities, five, ten maybe? When the right opportunity arises (but then when is the opportunity ‘right’?).
Maybe an answer is ‘when we are strong enough and technically advanced enough’. If so, this is our tale of Power, war, Conquest and Mayhem…

From the download thread:

Originally posted by Dominae
The purpose of this course is to explore the power of early warfare. We define "early warfare" as the assault of enemy units and cities during the Ancient era. Although under no official restrictions, players are encouraged to employ a very "aggressive" (in the martial sense) foreign policy right from the start.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Modo44
For two, they improve transportation a lot - a crucial thing being in a central location. Combined with a fast-mover force, I think this is what won my game.

We're comparing apples and oranges here. While I'm not denying that a good Road network facilitates warfare, there's also no denying that producing Archers every 4 turns from turn 1 is not so bad from a warmongering point of view.

That one Worker will not drastically speed up warmongering in the first 30 turns: you only get a new Road every 4 turns; you might pick the wrong direction (as I recall, you used your Worker to Road the Game tiles, which are in the opposite direction of your first target, the Mongols); and, most importantly, effective combat in Civ3 is not about reinforcements but hitting hard the first time.

I'm surprised you did not mention the Corruption-reduction ability of Roads, as I think that's the far more crucial aspect of Workers in this type of game; the difference between an Archer every 10 turns and every 7 turns is, well, better than a super-early military Road network.