AU Mod: Printing Press

[nbarclay]

The Problem:

The fact that Printing Press is optional makes Democracy and Free Artistry less attractive than they would be otherwise for humans to research and creates an opportunity for AIs to "waste" time pursuing an optional tech while humans focus on the mandatory techs. In addition, the idea of Printing Press as an optional tech seems odd given the integral role printing has played in the development of industrial and modern civilizations.

Possible solutions:

1) Make Printing Press mandatory. That is the most conservative solution short of doing nothing, but because Printing Press is available relatively quickly, humans could often trade for it so easily that making the tech mandatory would be meaningless. Note that we did in fact make this change in the PtW version of the AU Mod, but I don't think we ever considered the issue of whether or not to carry it over to the C3C version before now.

2) Make Printing Press a requirement for Banking (and, in the process, mandatory). Such a relationship could be shown on a modified tech tree relatively easily, and would provide an incentive to research Printing Press a bit earlier - especially for players who make Smith's a priority. The down side is that such a change could make strategies that make Banking and Smith's a high priority significantly less interesting than they are now.

3) Make Printing Press a requirement for Physics (and, in the process, mandatory). That would force players to obtain Printing Press three techs earlier than simply making Printing Press mandatory would, and would otherwise have only a minimal impact on players' choices of paths through the tech tree (since Physics already has both top-path and bottom-path prerequisites). The down side is that the way the tech tree is organized would make trying to show the new relationship really messy.

Any other ideas?

[Risa]

I think Print Press is fine as now. Shouldn't we add a "no change" choice in possible solutions?

[pvzh]

I do not think that making printing press mandatory is a good idea because it will increase its trade value by 50%. AI when assessing trade value of the thech divides value of otional tech by 1.5, so you can get more from Printing Press bee-line, plus being mandatory makes Printing Press bee-line even more benefitial, since you need the tech anyway.

The problem with the Democracy is not the Printing Press, but the government itself. Free Artisty is hindered by the fact that the Democracy is not a very good choice of the government and hard to trade for since AI values governments tech very high.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Risa
I think Print Press is fine as now. Shouldn't we add a "no change" choice in possible solutions?

Since "no change" is always an option, I didn't feel a need to spell it out. I'd be perfectly content to leave Printing Press the way it is in the stock rules, but since others had suggested changing it in the Shakespeare's Theater thread, I figured I'd start a thread to explore the issue.

[joncnunn]

Doesn't the divide by 1.5 for optional techs also mean that the AI values it as worth less when deciding which tech to reserach, so removing the flag would move PP up in it's own reserach queue?

[Dominae]

Re: AU Mod: Printing Press

Originally posted by nbarclay
1) Make Printing Press mandatory. That is the most conservative solution short of doing nothing, but because Printing Press is available relatively quickly, humans could often trade for it so easily that making the tech mandatory would be meaningless.

Have to trade for something with the AI is rarely meaningless: it means less stuff for you and more stuff for them. IIRC, I argued the exact opposite regarding Nationalism, but the situation there as different because the end of the Industrial era is comparatively much further away from Nationalism than the end of the Medieval era is to Printing Press. In a close game where getting to Steam Power is your main/typical hope of gaining an advantage over the competition, having to trade for Printing Press could represent a significant advantage for the AI.

2) Make Printing Press a requirement for Banking (and, in the process, mandatory). Such a relationship could be shown on a modified tech tree relatively easily, and would provide an incentive to research Printing Press a bit earlier - especially for players who make Smith's a priority. The down side is that such a change could make strategies that make Banking and Smith's a high priority significantly less interesting than they are now.

Not bad at all! Slightly drastic for the AU mod, IMO.

3) Make Printing Press a requirement for Physics (and, in the process, mandatory).

Way too drastic.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by pvzh
I do not think that making printing press mandatory is a good idea because it will increase its trade value by 50%. AI when assessing trade value of the thech divides value of otional tech by 1.5, so you can get more from Printing Press bee-line, plus being mandatory makes Printing Press bee-line even more benefitial, since you need the tech anyway.

So why did we make Philosophy an optional tech?

It is my understanding that this Printing Press beeline is not all that great. Do you find yourselves researching Printing Press in favor of, say, Gunpowder or Astronomy? Maybe I'm missing some key strategy here...

The problem with the Democracy is not the Printing Press, but the government itself. Free Artisty is hindered by the fact that the Democracy is not a very good choice of the government and hard to trade for since AI values governments tech very high.

If Printing Press were a required tech, Democracy would be more viable (if only sligthtly) because you would not be wasting any time researching a tech that does little-to-nothing on its own (including help reach the Industrial era). I'm still not understanding the trade bait argument, by the way.

[Theseus]

Sorry, I should have posted here first...

I believe that of the two threads regarding Printing Press and Shakespeare's Theatre, the most minimal approach would be to playtest first Printing Press as a required tech, and then Free Artistry as a required tech.

(to comments that both Dominae and Nathan have made, and with an admittedly Western point of view, I believe that both are tremendously valid when considering RL)

[Aqualung71]

Doesn't Printing Press allow one to trade communications with other civs?

[Dominae]

Yes, but in my experience that is rarely relevant for the human player, who typically has all Contacts already (or soon will - Astronomy), and is much better off keeping the AIs segregated than earning a modest amount for introducing them to each other.

[joncnunn]

There's a large amount of gold to be made when not all the AIs have contact with each other. Which is more often than you might think, even on a Pangena.

And on higher difficulty levels, those contacts are worth major discounts on techs, and sometimes more than the cheaper techs adviable.

Navigation & PP compliment each other.

Originally posted by Dominae
Yes, but in my experience that is rarely relevant for the human player, who typically has all Contacts already (or soon will - Astronomy), and is much better off keeping the AIs segregated than earning a modest amount for introducing them to each other.

[pvzh]

I do not think that making printing press mandatory is a good idea because it will increase its trade value by 50%. AI when assessing trade value of the thech divides value of otional tech by 1.5, so you can get more from Printing Press bee-line, plus being mandatory makes Printing Press bee-line even more benefitial, since you need the tech anyway.

So why did we make Philosophy an optional tech?

Because we more than double its cost, and to reduce its trade value! Amount of research that needed still produces substantial trade value even if tech allows nothing at all. How this related to Printing Press I fail to see.

Do you find yourselves researching Printing Press in favor of, say, Gunpowder or Astronomy?

Since we talking about Printing Press bee-line I doubt that any of theses might be available for research as you bee-line. Printing Press bee-line implies that I am first to Theology and go for Printing Press instead of Education, so Astronomy is not a choice, Gunpowder could be a choice, but if I am not the first to Invention AI most likely already researching it, so it is not a choice either.

Personally, I do not do the Printing Press beline because it makes contacts available for trade and I do not want that at all. If I am behind and need contacts I can trade for them without need of Printing Press (AI's have it already).

I'm still not understanding the trade bait argument, by the way.

Do you mean this part: "and hard to trade for since AI values governments tech very high".

What I ment was:
Since I am not going to be in Democracy and want to be in the Industrial Era ASAP, it is not wise to research it myself. However, if Free Artisty is a great tech (not the case), maybe I should trade for Democracy? This is not very good solution either because Democracy allow the new government, and AI values such tech very high. This obviously discouraging in Free Artisty and Shakespear.

In general, making Printing Press mandatory will not change much in my view. It is a lot of opportunity between let say Education / Gunpowder and the end of Middle Ages to get it in trade cheap or "for free": AI do not have anything to trade for let say Banking, you traded Banking around this turn, unless this AI hopelessly weak it will get this Banking in several turns, so why not get Printing Press?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by pvzh

Because we more than double its cost, and to reduce its trade value! Amount of research that needed still produces substantial trade value even if tech allows nothing at all. How this related to Printing Press I fail to see.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I misunderstood what you had said regarding the 1.5 factor for mandatory/optional techs.

Since we talking about Printing Press bee-line I doubt that any of theses might be available for research as you bee-line. Printing Press bee-line implies that I am first to Theology and go for Printing Press instead of Education, so Astronomy is not a choice, Gunpowder could be a choice, but if I am not the first to Invention AI most likely already researching it, so it is not a choice either.

First, although we were discussing the Printing Press beeline in particular, I think this whole discussion casts doubt on whether this beeline is good strategy in the first place. The AI's like Printing Press enough that in a close game (where it's trade bait value is actually important) the AI is likely to get there first. Furthermore, in a close game I would rather pull away toward the Industrial era, which is worth much more than puttering around in the Medieval era selling Contacts (to joncnunn: they do fetch a nice price, but not nice enough). The whole problem with the AI with respect to tech choices is that the human player can focus on a single path that actually does something useful, and expect the AI to waste time researching mandatory techs that do little-to-nothing. Researching Printing Press brings you no more closer to anything you want to use, and so researching the techs you do want to use (and use those as trade bait) keeps you both in the tech lead and the AIs poor.

Personally, I do not do the Printing Press beline because it makes contacts available for trade and I do not want that at all. If I am behind and need contacts I can trade for them without need of Printing Press (AI's have it already).

Agreed. And therefore, it would be a nuisance for you to trade for Printing Press, and a boon for the AI.

In general, making Printing Press mandatory will not change much in my view. It is a lot of opportunity between let say Education / Gunpowder and the end of Middle Ages to get it in trade cheap or "for free": AI do not have anything to trade for let say Banking, you traded Banking around this turn, unless this AI hopelessly weak it will get this Banking in several turns, so why not get Printing Press?

Yes, this can happen. In other games, where the tech race is closer (you know, on Demigod!?) it would not be so easy. This whole discussion the assumption has been that the human player is sitting comfortably in the tech lead, which is not always the case. And if it is indeed the case, I see no reason to ever research Printing Press because it's better to beeline for Railroads and just win.

[punkbass2000]

"Furthermore, in a close game I would rather pull away toward the Industrial era, which is worth much more than puttering around in the Medieval era selling Contacts (to joncnunn: they do fetch a nice price, but not nice enough). "

Contacts have nothing to do with it. PP itself is worth a fair amount of trade. It can be your third tech. You only end up with one Optional tech, which can be traded for several required techs. This gets you to the IA faster than trying to research required techs. I would often gain Edu., Feud., Eng., Chiv., Inv. and sometimes Gun. with PP. How many of those could you have with just research of techs that you likely won't be able to trade to many AIs that have useful techs?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Contacts have nothing to do with it. PP itself is worth a fair amount of trade. It can be your third tech. You only end up with one Optional tech, which can be traded for several required techs. This gets you to the IA faster than trying to research required techs. I would often gain Edu., Feud., Eng., Chiv., Inv. and sometimes Gun. with PP. How many of those could you have with just research of techs that you likely won't be able to trade to many AIs that have useful techs?

Wow, that's a lot of techs.

Are you saying that it is your standard strategy to research Printing Press instead of all those techs that could actualy be useful to you, and wait to trade it to the AIs for all the ones you've missed? If so, I assume you are playing on Deity and are coming from behind, and exploiting a quirk in the AI that makes it not research Printing Press (I've never seen this behaviour myself - in my experience the AI loves Printing Press). Why do you not go for a branch lead?

In any case, I think it's far from the optimal state of affairs if the only reason to research Printing Press is as an exploitative catchup mechanism on the higher levels (if it indeed works all the time). IMO you should have a reason to research all techs for their intrinsic value, independently of your knowledge of "what the AI will research next".