AU Mod: Shakesphere's Theater

[joncnunn]

Even with Conquests adding allows city to grow past size 12, Shakesphere's Theater is still unpopular.

Some reasons are:

1. It's 3 techs deep into optional techs. (Requiring Free Art, Democracy, and Printing Press)

2. Democracy itself is often bypassed; even humans playing Religious civs usually don't beeline to it.

3. Resulting in by the time Shakesphere's can be built, Hospitals are right around the corner anyway.

4. It's somewhat worsened by the existing AU mod that moved the double growth Great Wonder into the Early Industrial era. (Why build a wonder allowing 1 big city, when I can build a wonder that will quickly allow all my cities to rapidally grow)

5. An annoying feature in the game that Hospitals do not disappear from the build queue of the city in which it's built. Can not be moded away because the adding a free building would add it to at least every city on the same landmass. Free Hospitals everywhere would be worse for balancing (in the other direction) than the current siutation.

Options are:

1. Reducing the cost of Shakepshere's Theater.
(Not particularly desirable, cost of it isn't much of a factor for humans.)

2. Moving the Free Artistry tech earlier, say requiriing Printing Press & Music Theory instead. (Probably wouldn't help here either, it would be competing directly against Sistines, Bachs, Sun Tzus, Leos, and Knights Templar)

3. Replace "size 3 citys" with doubles the unhappiness value of a Colossums in every city on the same landmass.

I think that would be the prefered solution because this would help allow fora stregic option. Should I go for Catherdrials and Sistines Chapel or for Colossums and Shakesphere's Theater?

Combine this with : Colosossum gets a 50% discount for Military players, and it might really spice up the happiness improvement pattern.

[punkbass2000]

How about giving it Factory powers in addition to/instead of Hospital powers?

[joncnunn]

It's certinately doable in the editor to increase the number of shields produced by say Shakesphere's by say 50% and also add in the building polution amout of say 2.

But keep in mind possibility of a start where both Iron & Coal were within city raidus of a city very close to the capital and how many shields that would allow once combined with Iron Works.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
How about giving it Factory powers in addition to/instead of Hospital powers?

[punkbass2000]

True. I don't know much about editing/balance, etc. But, really, what are the odds your gonna build ST and then discover Coal in your radius in addition to the Iron already there? I don't think this very small possibility would overpower the ST, and I think that even with my suggested addition, ST still wouldn't be a great choice for a GW build, especially where it is in the techtree. I don't see many people beelining towards it for this reason, anyway.

[punkbass2000]

Oh, and would it be possible for this wonder to be an antirequisite for a Factory (so that they can't add together)?

[Dominae]

I'm not sure the AU mod should add abilities to Wonders.

I propose:

1. Printing Press becomes a required tech.
2. Free Artistry requires Printing Press (not Democracy).
3. (Optional) Reduce cost of Shakespeare's Theater.

This might seem like a lot, but it's not just a solution to the Shakespeare's Theater problem. If Printing Press is a required tech, both Democracy and Free Artistry become a lot more attractive to the human player; I think we can all agree that Printing Press is currently one of those techs best left for the AI to research 95% of the time. On a realism note, it's always bugged me that Printing Press is a required tech in Civ3 when in the real-world it is arguably one of the most important inventions of all time.

As for the cost reduction, I would not go so far as saying the Shield costs are "unimportant" to the human player. Pre-Factories, 450 Shields takes on average about 20 turns to complete. If this figure were more around 10, I'm sure players would opt for the Theater much more often.

[punkbass2000]

I think PP is a very important tech for trade-bait...

[Dominae]

Then there's no problem in making it a required tech.

[joncnunn]

Nope, and it would be a bad idea to add the "repalaces other buildings with this flag" to Shakespheres Theater and an even worse one to add it to Factory.

It would similarly be a bad idea to make Shakesphere expire with Industrialization.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Oh, and would it be possible for this wonder to be an antirequisite for a Factory (so that they can't add together)?

[joncnunn]

Depends on how certain you are that not all the AIs have contact with each other already, and how much you think you can get.

I see no problem making PP a required tech. It's a small step in the right direction.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
I think PP is a very important tech for trade-bait...

[Risa]

Re: AU Mod: Shakesphere's Theater

Originally posted by joncnunn
Even with Conquests adding allows city to grow past size 12, Shakesphere's Theater is still unpopular.

Some reasons are:

1. It's 3 techs deep into optional techs. (Requiring Free Art, Democracy, and Printing Press)

2. Democracy itself is often bypassed; even humans playing Religious civs usually don't beeline to it.

3. Resulting in by the time Shakesphere's can be built, Hospitals are right around the corner anyway.

4. It's somewhat worsened by the existing AU mod that moved the double growth Great Wonder into the Early Industrial era. (Why build a wonder allowing 1 big city, when I can build a wonder that will quickly allow all my cities to rapidally grow)

Honestly, I don't agree with you. The Theatre is not as unpopular as you think. It is true that it dwells deep in the optional upper branch of tech tree and is often ignored until idutrial era if one beelines to Military Tradition. But that makes perfect sense: It is a cultural wonder, not a militaristic one. On the other side, if you enjoy peaceful culture-building middle age, the Theatre is a rather good candidate for mid-to-late middle age wonder project, as it will allow you to get a huge city long before Sanitation, without any need of worrying happyness problem. The smaller the nation is, the more important. In an OCC game, it will be the fourth most important wonder, with the Colossus, Copernicus's and Newton's as first three.
In all, it is roughly just matter of tastes.

5. An annoying feature in the game that Hospitals do not disappear from the build queue of the city in which it's built. Can not be moded away because the adding a free building would add it to at least every city on the same landmass. Free Hospitals everywhere would be worse for balancing (in the other direction) than the current siutation.

I hope that is not your major reason of change.

[Risa]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
I think PP is a very important tech for trade-bait...

Player is almost guaranteed to research PP first in stock rules, since AI cannot recognize the value of communication trading. But in AU mod, AIs have learned that, handle the tech quite well. A similar situation is Literature.

[nbarclay]

I opened a separate thread for the Printing Press issue, since a lot of aspects of that issue are completely separate from this one.

My view of Shakespeare's Theater is that it's a nice toy that's worth pursuing if I can get it without going significantly out of my way, but that it isn't worth going particularly out of my way to get. I see nothing wrong with that; it adds flavor to the game, and if I don't build it, whatever AI does build it can get an advantage from it. (And the fact that I'm not especially interested means that AIs have a much better chance of getting it than if I made it a higher priority.)

Moving Free Artistry to where it does not have Democracy as a prerequisite might possibly be worthwhile if there are players who would research Free Artistry if Democracy weren't in the way but who aren't willing to research Democracy in addition to Free Artisty. The question is, do such players exist? Would the change matter, or would players still not consider the tech worth the trouble even if it were moved?

I'd really rather not tinker with the cost or benefits of Shakespeare's Theater because I think the cost and benefits are balanced against each other just fine - if one has the prerequisite tech. If my own attitude is even close to representative of how others think, it is ultimately the cost of researching an extra tech (or in some cases of trading for it on unfavorable terms), not issues of the wonder's shield cost or benefits, that gets in the way of players' building it more often. I don't like the idea of giving the wonder as much additional power as we'd have to in order to make it worth researching an extra tech for.

[nbarclay]

Re: AU Mod: Shakesphere's Theater

Originally posted by joncnunn

5. An annoying feature in the game that Hospitals do not disappear from the build queue of the city in which it's built.

That really isn't particularly different from how the option of building coal and solar plants stays around if a player has Hoover's on the same continent, and the number of cities affected is a whole lot smaller: one. It might have been nice if Firaxis or their partners had bothered to add code to check for Shakespeare's and remove hospitals from the build queue if it's there. But their failure to incorporate such a feature does not even rise to the level of a bug in my view, much less to the level of being an issue worth considering in regard to the AU Mod.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Moving Free Artistry to where it does not have Democracy as a prerequisite might possibly be worthwhile if there are players who would research Free Artistry if Democracy weren't in the way but who aren't willing to research Democracy in addition to Free Artisty. The question is, do such players exist? Would the change matter, or would players still not consider the tech worth the trouble even if it were moved?

I might consider it worthwile, if it wasn't for Democracy. I don't trade for Democracy for very long for the reason, that it doesn't do me any good (too difficult to keep the peace). I typically get it only as a "bonus" part of a deal (getting everything else they have, and Democracy ontop of it, as the last thing). This means that I don't even try for Shakespeare's, except sometimes, when in a commanding tech lead. Free Artistry might be more interesting if available separately, without forcing me to buy/research so many non-mandatory techs (currently it's 3...). If nothing else, it would at least get some trading value for the AI, making me interested in buying it (AI is in love with this tech). Making it a low-priority tech (instead of a never-touch tech) would be an improvement for the AI, at least when playing against me.

Shakespeare's is a cheap wonder at the time it comes, so lowering it's cost is not a good idea. I agree that shields are not the problem here. If it was to increase happiness from Colosseums, I'd even propose increasing the cost, so that you wouldn't get a ridiculously cheap alternative for Sistine's.