AU Mod Test Game: Explorig Colosseums as Tourists

[nbarclay]

There has been some suggestion that we test how much value players can really get out of early colosseums with a Tourist Attraction bonus. In order to facilitate such testing, I put together a quick scenario incorporating the changes to the colosseum that we recently voted on (restoring the cost to 120 and adding the Militaristic flag) as well as the proposed tourist attraction changes (restoring the upkeep cost to 2 and adding the tourism bonus). Settings are continents, middle-of-the-road, restless barbs.

I've left the choice of civ up to players so people can try different things in an effort to "break" the proposed change, with the only unplayable civs being the ones chosen for the AIs (at random but discarding some civs I thought humans might be especially interested in). Players are strongly encouraged to try to build a number of colosseums really early to see how much gold they can get later on, perhaps even modifying their research path to pursue Construction earlier than usual.

I based this scenario on my Mythic Hero mod, with a Mythic Hero difficulty level inserted in between Emperor and Demigod. That way my game here can provide an additional data point on how Mythic Hero plays in addition to examining the colosseum issue. Unfortunately, that means scores and hut results (and conceivably other things) for players playing on Demigod and above will be as if playing a level higher. If anyone wants to play on Demigod or higher and is bothered by that, let me know and I'll see if I can come up with an alternate version without Mythic Hero.

It would probably be best if people who play this scenario (if in fact anyone besides me does) not post anything about their games until a week from now or when a vote on the tourist attraction bonus is about to occur, whichever comes first. That way we won't have as much risk of interfering with the fun of people who start the game a bit later or play a bit more slowly.

[nbarclay]

Here's a look at the starting position from an Iroquois perspective. (I gave us a relatively good one because a good starting position makes it easier to start building colosseums early, thus increasing the chance of our uncovering balance problems if such problems exist.)

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
(I gave us a relatively good one because a good starting position makes it easier to start building colosseums early, thus increasing the chance of our uncovering balance problems if such problems exist.)

...or it could cloud our judgement by not being able to differentiate between two UP-type games. Not that big a deal, really, as long as each person plays through the scenario twice: once by prioritizing Colosseums, once by playing "normally".

By the way, are Colosseums 60 Shields in this game, or 120?

[nbarclay]

Multiple games shouldn't be necessary. We can look at the effect of the tourism bonus on our own civs by going through our cities and seeing what the tourist attraction bonuses are, and on AI civs by using the Espionage system to spy on AI cities (probably reloading to use the same gold to check multiple cities). That would be a lot easier - and a lot less boring - than playing the same scenario twice under different rule sets.

The ideal would be if players save the game at various points after 1000 AD, or maybe starting a little earlier, so they can go back after the game is over and use the espionage mechanism to see what bonuses the AIs were getting at different times. That would provide an even clearer picture of how human and AI benefits compare.

I won't rule out the possibility that this will play out as an Ultimate Power type game for players using Agricultural civs, but I went to a little extra trouble to make sure we aren't the only ones on our continent with extra food. Nor is our starting position a particularly exceptional one. What I'm hoping for - and it remains to be seen whether I'll get it - is reasonable balance between us and our neighbors, but with a relatively fast REXing and research pace on both sides.

Regarding the cost of colosseums, it's restored to 120 with the Militaristic flag checked (as per a recent vote). So the cost should be 60 for Militaristic civs and 120 for everyone else.

[nbarclay]

By the way, the strategy I have in mind at the moment (and I haven't really started playing yet so it might change) is:

1) Use the Iroquois for their Agricultural REXing advantage and their starting with Alphabet.

2) Research Writing, then Mathematics (assuming I can trade for Masonry), and then Philosophy. If I can be first to Philosophy in spite of the delay, and assuming I can trade for Iron Working, I can get Construction as my free tech without delaying Republic too much.

3) Built colosseums as a high priority once I'm finished REXing.

[punkbass2000]

I'm thinking I'm gonna go with the Vikings, but we'll see when I get time for this... (and when I have to put my money where my mouth is )

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Multiple games shouldn't be necessary. We can look at the effect of the tourism bonus on our own civs by going through our cities and seeing what the tourist attraction bonuses are, and on AI civs by using the Espionage system to spy on AI cities.

Yes, but you also have to compare the strategy of mass Colosseum beeline (or whatever you want to call it) to a more conservative approach. We know that the human player always exploits things better than the AI, the real question is whether early Colosseums are powerful enough that not going that route is just bad strategy. To show this you need a comparison.

[nbarclay]

My first attempt to cause the tourist attraction mechanism to create an imbalance in my favor failed miserably. I got Philosophy first in spite of a big detour, but the AIs never got around to researching Iron Working so I ended up stuck taking Monarchy instead of Construction as my free tech. I'm up to 630 BC and still ten turns away from Construction at my current pace, which means the really big bonuses wouldn't kick in until pretty late in the game.

Conclusion: We definitely don't have anything resembling a problem where rushing to Construction and trying to build a bunch of early colosseums is the way to go in every game. Whether there are particular conditions where the strategy is overpowering remains to be seen. I may try setting up a different scenario where the neighbors are deliberaely chosen to be more helpful instead of selected at random.

[Moonbars]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I may try setting up a different scenario where the neighbors are deliberaely chosen to be more helpful instead of selected at random.

Carry your game on, and see what those Cols do for you if you biuild then 500-0AD.

For another test, try this map again but move the col from CONST. to Burial, or some cheaper start-tech.

If library and marketplace multipliers affect the WEALTH that comes of the TB, then I think we want to can the idea. I was sure it was just straight up gold!!

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Moonbars
For another test, try this map again but move the col from CONST. to Burial, or some cheaper start-tech.

That would move the Colosseum by several years. Thousands of years for Militaristic civs, counting as a replacement for Temples. The relatively late, and expensive technology is a big factor here, so removing it would make the test useless.

[Moonbars]

No I don't think so, if the objective is to see if lots of early Cols would be game breaking, that's a way of finding out. Sure it's not real-game conditions, but it would let us try the Col out. However, we may not want to bother:

I have been looking at an old game, where I have a captued city with 3 old wonders in it, and can confirm the following:

The Tourist bonus is:
reduced by corruption
spent as per your SCI/ECO/LUX sliders
Increased by LIB/Market/Bank/Uni

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Moonbars
No I don't think so, if the objective is to see if lots of early Cols would be game breaking, that's a way of finding out. Sure it's not real-game conditions, but it would let us try the Col out.

The very point is, that Colosseums come too late, to become game breaking. If you move them to 2000 BC, by assigning them to Ceremonial Burial, then you will naturally get a huge bonus out of them. The same thing would be extremely hard to achieve with Colosseums built around 500 BC, or later, as with Construction. Remember, that one important argument for the change is, that it won't be possible to build many early Colosseums at all.

[Moonbars]

Originally posted by Modo44

The very point is, that Colosseums come too late, to become game breaking.

Kind sir, I am not in dispute with you. NB has seen that with cols at CONST, he couldn't build any before 500BC, and might not get any up before 0AD.

I proposed moving them to CB, for this test game only, so as to ensure we CAN build some. If the game breaks, then our assumption that a few early cols is unbalancing is confirmed. If we build lots of early cols and the game doesn't break.. then we've proved there is no problem.

We test the extremes.

The question then becomes - how many can you get with cols at contrs? the first response is: Zero.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Moonbars

Kind sir, I am not in dispute with you. NB has seen that with cols at CONST, he couldn't build any before 500BC, and might not get any up before 0AD.

My not being able to build colosseums earlier in my first attempt was due to which civs I had as neighbors (no Industrious civ to get Masonry from) and, more importantly, to a peculiarity of AI research in that game (I couldn't trade for Iron Working). I've already started another game making sure I had an industrious civ nearby, and I've played to a point where Iron Working has been discovered. So if I can research Mathematics and still win the race to Philosophy, I should get some early colosseums with my second attempt. If it works out, I'll post the scenario for others to try.

[nbarclay]

My new scenario worked reasonably well, with me discovering Philosophy and getting Construction as a free tech in 690 BC (on Mythic Hero difficulty level). Even so, I wasn't able to get Construction until well after 1000 BC. I'm starting to get the idea that it takes a really special starting position, plus the right civ, to get the kind of ultra-early colosseums punkbass2000 is thinking in terms of. If anyone wants to try to prove me wrong, here's the scenario I used. Note that the name is very similar to the first one, but the map is completely different.