AU Mod: Difficulty Levels

[alexman]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Since almost no one is currently playing on those highest levels in AU games, the impact would be minimal. If we reach a point where more players are playing on Demigod or higher, we could reconsider.

Actually, I believe there are plenty of people playing on Demigod or higher. The last AU course was an exception because of the restriction to remain peaceful in the beginning of the game.

As for the idea to add a level between Emperor and Demigod, you're still making the gap between those two levels even greater than it is in stock, because of goody hut results.

[nbarclay]

I just had an interesting thought. There is no way I would support different versions of the AU Mod that actually have different rules of play because of the fragmentation that such a precedent would lead to. The number of versions of the Mod needed to support that kind of approach would quickly become absurd, and questions of who is playing by what rules would tend to confuse the DARs as well.

But since difficulty levels are a set-up issue rather than an issue of rules of play, I think we could put out a "half level" version of the Mod that provides intermediate difficulty levels without its having to become a precedent for different versions with differences in the rules of play. The "half level" version could replace Emperor with a level in between Monarch and Emperor (mostly for Arrian's benefit), Demigod with Mythic Hero, and Sid with a level in between Deity and Sid (maybe Sid Jr.?). That way the hut outcomes would fit for all levels, and the standard version of the Mod would remain completely unaffected.

Nathan

[Dominae]

A creative idea, but "Demigod Junior" just makes me giggle way too much to take it seriously at this point. Maybe later.

[nbarclay]

If you want to laugh at the name "Demigod Junior," I have no objection. Why should I, since it's a name you came up with, not one I did?

But from my experience thus far, the Mythic Hero difficulty level is certainly no joke. The new level provides a very definite increase in difficulty from Emperor.

[punkbass2000]

I propose we call it 'nbarclay'.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
But from my experience thus far, the Mythic Hero difficulty level is certainly no joke. The new level provides a very definite increase in difficulty from Emperor.

Yes, we already knew that. So does Demigod. I am not at all surprised that you like your new dififculty level, but that is not the point at issue here since the AU mod is not your mod.

By the way, to be fair in your testing (referring to your other thread), you should play the same game out a third time at Demigod.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
I propose we call it 'nbarclay'.

Make that 'Mythic nbarclay'!

[punkbass2000]

Oh, and you can claim the Sid Jr. title

It will be a senior AU citizen showcase!

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae

Yes, we already knew that.

Did we? It sounded to me like your impression was that the difference between Emperor and Demigod would be too small to justify separate difficulty levels.

So does Demigod. I am not at all surprised that you like your new dififculty level, but that is not the point at issue here since the AU mod is not your mod.

And if I were the only one interested, I would be content to let the issue drop. I've tried to make that clear from the beginning. But I'm not the only one interested.

By the way, to be fair in your testing (referring to your other thread), you should play the same game out a third time at Demigod.

I would word it, for my testing to be as complete as possible, I should play the same game out on Demigod. I seriously considered doing so, but decided against it (at least for the time being) because (1) of the time it would require and (2) I felt like our collective experience base with Demigod was strong enough that the additional game wouldn't really be needed to provide us with adequate information.

Do you have specific questions that would require a Demigod game to answer? If so, I may need to reevaluate the importance of such a game. But so far, no one seems to be asking any questions that would make a Demigod game necessary.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Did we? It sounded to me like your impression was that the difference between Emperor and Demigod would be too small to justify separate difficulty levels.

Well, you have my position all wrong then. I said that the difference between Emperor and Demigod is sufficient/acceptable, and that there need not be an intermediate difficulty level in between in the context of the AU mod. You clearly do not like the difficulty of Demigod, but find Emperor too easy, so it is not surprising that you will enjoy anything in between. Personally I feel you should just get used to Demigod (and start dominating there), but there I go being a tyrant again!

And if I were the only one interested, I would be content to let the issue drop. I've tried to make that clear from the beginning. But I'm not the only one interested.

Good! So how about you get things moving and make the proposal to the panel? It was created to avoid long, heated, and ultimately pointless discussions such as this.

I would word it, for my testing to be as complete as possible, I should play the same game out on Demigod. I seriously considered doing so, but decided against it (at least for the time being) because (1) of the time it would require and (2) I felt like our collective experience base with Demigod was strong enough that the additional game wouldn't really be needed to provide us with adequate information.

Without playing the same test game on Demigod, all you are showing about Mythic is that:

1. Mythic is more difficult than Emperor.
2. Mythic is more enjoyable to you.

Did we need a test to convince ourselves of this? All I am seeing from your test games is that you are in relatively the same position of power on Mythic as you are on Emperor; calculate GNP, Productivity and tech lead all you like, you are still dominating. So, no, I do not see Mythic as providing you with the level of challenge I believe an increase in difficulty level should. You, we all know, disagree, because you like Mythic. So let us just drop it and let the panel decide.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Dominae
All I am seeing from your test games is that you are in relatively the same position of power on Mythic as you are on Emperor

No I'm not. In the Emperor game, I achieved technological superiority over the other continent with me having virtually all of the top-branch techs (Navigation and a turn away from Banking) before even Engineering on the bottom path of the medieval tech tree had been researched. From my experience, reaching that point means massive technological superiority by the time I enter the industrial era - the kind of superiority that makes domination victories with cavalry (possibly supported by artillery depending on when I'd make my move) easy on a standard-size map. In the Mythic Hero game, as of 1320 AD, I have four mandatory techs that my closest competitor doesn't but my closest competitors have Nationalism and I don't. Yes, I'm ahead, but I'm not in anywhere near the kind of totally dominant technological position that I would be in if I played the Emperor game to the same point.

So, no, I do not see Mythic as providing you with the level of challenge I believe an increase in difficulty level should.

Why not? Within a few games of my move from Monarch to Emperor as my normal difficulty level, the difference between Monarch and Emperor for me was similar: I could win reliably on Emperor (at least with a decent starting position), but not run away with games by big margins nearly as often or as easily as I could on Monarch. Thus, I would argue that either the difference between Emperor and Mythic Hero is big enough to justify an increase in difficulty level or the difference between Monarch and Emperor is not.

It seems to me that you're judging how my Mythic Hero game ought to look as if I were a novice Mythic Hero player when in reality I am at the level of a veteran Mythic Hero player (and indeed a player with a fair amount of experience on Demigod, albeit usually giving myself exceptionally good starting positions when I play on that level). Would you judge the difference between Monarch and Emperor to be too small to justify an increase in difficulty level just because an experienced Emperor player can win by significant margins on Emperor? If not, why judge Mythic Hero as having too small an increase just because I - who am capable of winning on Demigod but stick to Emperror in AU games because I enjoy it more in the absence of a really fantastic starting position - can win by a pretty decent margin on Mythic Hero?

[jshelr]

I just read this thread and can't help sticking in two cents, late or not.

There is a right answer here. I personally agree with Dom's attitude. Since I can always beat emperor, every time regardless of start, it's boring. I want to get clobbered sometimes, or at least be worried that I might be clobbered.

So, demi is more fun, although, like Sir R, I get a bit frustrated by the early game.

I won't be using a level that simply delays the inevitable victory, as Nathan's proposal would probably do. On demi, I have to take some chances, and once in a while I get caught off guard.

But, nonetheless, Nathan is clearly correct. Choice is never bad. The lower levels are useless to us. Adding an extra level can only make things better for some, and not change things for others. A clear win.

Nathan's overstating to call a vote against this tyrannical. Governments routinely make bad choices and the leadership panel of AU is no exception.

[nbarclay]

It is not the fact that Dominae opposes the idea of a Mythic Hero level in and of itself that I characterize as tyrannical, but rather the reasoning behind his position. To me, his attitude comes across as, "These are the goals you ought to be pursuing, and if you don't share these goals, what you want doesn't matter." I view that kind of attitude as very different from, and vastly more dangerous to freedom then, an attitude of, "I know you want that, but I have to oppose your getting it because letting you have it would cause too much harm [or danger] to others."

Yes, I know we're just talking about a game here. But attitudes similar to Dominae's have harmed freedom enough in the real world that they tend to rub me the wrong way no matter where I encounter them.

[Dominae]

Need we dig this up again?

Originally posted by nbarclay
To me, his attitude comes across as, "These are the goals you ought to be pursuing, and if you don't share these goals, what you want doesn't matter."

Why must you stick with "comes across as" and simply listen to my words regarding this issue? Here they are: "These are the goals I, Dominae, think Apolyton University and its mod ought to be promoting, and if you don't share these goals, let your voice be heard but accept the panel's the final decision."

I think your voice has been heard on this issue many times. Keeping on attacking my "attitude" makes me wonder what the real problem is here. I'm prepared to have things not go my way, to have Mythic Hero become part of the mod despite my opposition to it (if that's the way the panel votes). You, on the other hand, keep hammering at the issue like it's Mythic Hero or bust.

I view that kind of attitude as very different from, and vastly more dangerous to freedom then, an attitude of, "I know you want that, but I have to oppose your getting it because letting you have it would cause too much harm [or danger] to others."

Yes, I know we're just talking about a game here. But attitudes similar to Dominae's have harmed freedom enough in the real world that they tend to rub me the wrong way no matter where I encounter them.

Yes, this is a game, and you are getting a little too intense. Remember that you are ultimately "free" to do whatever you please with respect to this whole issue: mod the game yourself and play Mythic Hero to your heart's content. But you want it to be part of the AU mod really really badly. Well, the AU mod is not just about you, it's about a whole community. Some members of this community do not necessarily want what you want, and therefore there must be some arbitrator of disputes. A panel has been set up to decide what changes will be made (to the mod) that will affect that community, thus acting as an arbitrator. So your constant complaining about my attitude (which has neatly replaced the real issue) is not really productive.

I am sorry I rub you the wrong way; I've done it before to others. But you rub me the wrong way too. So who is right? A internet game fansite is not a good place to try and resolve such disputes. So let's just drop it.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
It is not the fact that Dominae opposes the idea of a Mythic Hero level in and of itself that I characterize as tyrannical, but rather the reasoning behind his position.

Oh, and another thing: I suspect that many players who also oppose Mythic Hero (scroll up to see which ones) feel more or less the same way I do: they do not think it fits the goals of the AU mod. Whether or not we are all tyrannical is for you to judge, please do not polarize this as Dominae's tyranny versus the AU community's freedoms.