AU Mod: Difficulty Levels

[Modo44]

I think I didn't make myself clear. The analogy is very much there, exactly as you present your difficulties with Demigod. My transition to Emperor was after I could completely dominate games on Monarch, not just win them. And I still found Emperor a big challenge. Yes, it was extreme, and only then did I learn new things about the game. If I understand you correctly, a very similar thing happened to you at the Demigod level. The additional AI Settler at Demigod is extreme, but so was the additional Worker at Emperor. The production bonus won't hurt me, if I don't get outREXed. I want to get outREXed on the next difficulty level, otherwise I won't need to learn anything new to beat it. Will play one game, and then leave it. No, thanks. Especially not with the AU Mod.

[nbarclay]

Modo44, I think you're overestimating the impact of the extra worker. I reran my test scenario without the extra worker on Emperor, and here's the difference, with the first figures (in cities/settlers format) being without the extra starting worker and the second being with.

Rome: 5/2 vs. 7/0
Egypt: 6/0 vs. 6/1
Greece: 6/0 vs. 6/2
Babylon: 3/0 vs. 3/1
Germany: 6/0 vs. 6/0
Russia: 1/0 vs. 1/0 (Remember, they can't grow enough to build settlers.)
China: 5/1 vs. 5/1
America: 5/0 vs. 6/0

Looking at the five civs I focused on earlier (and ignoring Babylon, Russia, and China), the extra worker resulted in 0.6 extra cities and 0.2 extra settlers per civ. That's enough to make a difference, especially on top of the cost factor advantage and other advantages that Emperor-level AIs get, but I would hardly call the difference the extra worker makes "extreme." The extra settler on Demigod made a bit more than twice as much of a difference in my test scenario: 1.6 cities but no settlers. (And remember that Demigod provides a third worker in addition to that extra settler.)

As for how many games you would play on Mythic Hero, that depends on when you would make the transition. If you wait until you are ready for Demigod to start trying Mythic Hero, chances are excellent that you would play virtually no games on Mythic Hero - unless you decide that the difference in the nature of Demigod games makes them less fun. But if you take advantage of Mythic Hero as an opportunity to move up before you are ready for Demigod, you would probably find yourself playing quite a few games on Mythic Hero before you move up. Similarly, there is a good bit of room for players to be able to out-REX Emperor AIs but to be out-REXed in Mythic Hero games with comparable starting positions.

[nbarclay]

A Level Between Monarch and Emperor

Thinking a little more about my experiment with the worker on Emperor, I'm starting to think inserting a level in between Monarch and Emperor might be more practical than I originally thought. When Arrian expressed interest in the idea, my first reaction was to think that the difference between Monarch and Emperor is small enough that it would be hard to get a viable split. But with the difference encompassing (1) a level of bonuses for the AIs, (2) an extra worker, and (3) the loss of a citizen born content, I'm starting to think it would be practical to have an intermediate level in between the two if there is sufficient interest to justify it. Modo44's words about how hard he found the transition from Monarch to Emperor add further to my thinking that an intermediate level there might have value to the community as a whole (as opposed to just being something Arrian would enjoy). I'm not to the point of advocating such a level yet, but I'm curious as to what people think.

[Tassadar500]

And then we should add a level between Regent and Monarch, and then Demi-God to Deity, and then Deity to Sid.

[Dominae]

Edit: Forget it (an unproductive comment deleted).

[punkbass2000]

Damn, I missed it! What was the comment?

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear
And then we should add a level between Regent and Monarch, and then Demi-God to Deity, and then Deity to Sid.

Slippery slope arguments are worth considering, but they are also dangerous. Excessive fear of slippery slopes puts you on a slippery slope in the direction of being so afraid of slippery slopes that you don't do things that are worth doing.

Obviously, at any given time, we have to draw the line somewhere regarding what kinds of intermediate levels are worthwhile and what kinds are not. But it does not logically follow that we should automatically draw the line at not having any intermediate levels at all.

My own view is that an intermediate level is justified if and only if (1) there is significant interest and (2) there is evidence that people are, on more than just a very short-term basis when they first make a transition, having a hard time finding a fit they like in the standard levels. Thus far, no one has seriously suggested that any transitions other than the Emperor-Demigod transition and possibly the Monarch-Emperor transition meet both those criteria.

[Modo44]

See, now you convinced yourself, that another level is needed. We need to draw the line, I agree. Stay conservative. Or should I really restart my ideas about Panzers, Berserks, and what not? Should I then ask for a poll for those, I admit, fun modifications?

Originally posted by nbarclay
Modo44, I think you're overestimating the impact of the extra worker.

Again, you try to convince me with numbers. You can't. I know what my experience was, and it was of an overwhelming AI. I don't really care what the reason was. It made me start in a hole, and that's precisely what I needed to learn to play better. I don't want it to be easier. Not for my fun games, and even less for a mod that is supposed to make the game harder, and more interesting.

EOT, I have nothing to add.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Modo44
See, now you convinced yourself, that another level is needed.

That is a serious misrepresentation. I've said that an intermediate level between Monarch and Emperor "would be practical...if there is sufficient interest to justify it," "might have value," and would "possibly" satisfy the criteria I consider necessary to justify an intermediate level. That is a long, long way from arguing that such a level is needed. I'm not trying to convince people that a level between Monarch and Emperor is needed, but rather to see whether there is sufficient (and sufficiently reasonable) interest to justify such a level.

Or should I really restart my ideas about Panzers, Berserks, and what not?

An additional dfficulty level is something that people can use or not as they see fit. The only people signfiicantly affected would be people who want to be affected.

In contrast, changes to units have a direct impact on everyone, not just people who like the changes but also people who dislike them. Conservatism is a lot more important when a change that helps some people carries a significant risk of harming others than it is when a change that would benefit some people poses no meaningful risk to others.

Should I then ask for a poll for those, I admit, fun modifications?

I'm not the one that broke from the normal AU Mod procedure and asked for a poll. My intent was to follow normal procedure, waiting until the matter was thoroughly discussed and then putting my proposal under consideration for the panel.

Again, you try to convince me with numbers. You can't. I know what my experience was, and it was of an overwhelming AI. I don't really care what the reason was.

You were trying to portray the situation as if the Emperor-Demigod transition were no different from the Monarch-Emperor transition. My point with the numbers was to show that they are not the same, that the Emperor-Demigod gap is bigger because an extra settler has a lot more impact than an extra worker. (Not to mention that Demigod also provides an extra worker in addition to the settler.)

My understanding is that you don't have the kind of first-hand experience with Demigod that would be needed to judge the issue for yourself. If that is the case, and you refuse to listen to numbers that show how the distances between difficulty levels vary, I'm really curious as to the basis on which you consider yourself competent to judge the issue.

It made me start in a hole, and that's precisely what I needed to learn to play better.

Is it? My own experience was that the size of the gap between Monarch and Emperor hurt at least as much as it helped because it had me chasing "false leads" of feeling a need for early military conqeust instead of focusing my attention in directions that would help me beat Emperor in the economic game. There are advantages as well as disadvantages to not taking big jumps all at once. The fact that the big jump resulted in your learning to play better does not mean that you couldn't have learned just as much moving in smaller steps.

I don't want it to be easier. Not for my fun games, and even less for a mod that is supposed to make the game harder, and more interesting.

I'd like to quote from what you wrote in your first DAR in AU 504: "I'm playing AU mod, Monarch level. Normally it would be Emperor, but I'm still well capable of loosing at that level. "

Are those the words of someone who doesn't want it easier? Your situation in that game illustrates the potential value of intermediate levels. Had a level between Monarch and Emperor been available, you would have had the option of moving down roughly half a level from Emperor instead of a full level, thereby playing a harder game than you actually did, not an easier one.

The reality is that whether an intermediate level makes the game easier or harder depends on which level a player would play on otherwise. If a player would play on the harder level otherwise, the intermediate level makes the game easier. But if a player would play on the easier level otherwise, the intermediate level makes the game harder. For me, the Mythic Hero level would make AU games harder, not easier, because in the absence of that level, I'll keep playing most if not all of my AU games on Emperor. That is in direct contradiction to your characterization of an intermediate level as just making things easier.

And as I've also said before, players who always want to play on the hardest level they can possibly cope with could move up to an intermediate level before they are ready for the next regular level. So if you view throwing yourself in the deep end as the best way to learn, why not support the Mythic Hero level and move up to it as quickly as you can?

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by nbarclay


I'm not the one that broke from the normal AU Mod procedure and asked for a poll. My intent was to follow normal procedure, waiting until the matter was thoroughly discussed and then putting my proposal under consideration for the panel.

Well Nathan, the only way to validate your claims of it being needed, and would be used, is through a poll. A thread, especially this type of thread in the AU Forum, is not particularly inviting to lurkers to show their opinion, or even for anyone who is intimidated from the AU's so called "elitism."

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Lord Nuclear

Well Nathan, the only way to validate your claims of it being needed, and would be used, is through a poll. A thread, especially this type of thread in the AU Forum, is not particularly inviting to lurkers to show their opinion, or even for anyone who is intimidated from the AU's so called "elitism."

A poll asking people whether they would be likely to use a Mythic Hero difficulty level would be compatible with the normal AU Mod procedure. We don't normally do it, but in this case, such a poll would provide the panel with useful information without undercutting the normal procedure.

The reason I characterized your poll as breaking from the normal AU Mod procedure is that it calls for an up-or-down vote on a proposed change and, worse, started the vote before discussion even reached a point of placing a change officially under consideration. I'm not questioning your motives, nor am I trying to make a big fuss about it. But the practical effect of such a poll does contradict the procedure we established for making changes to the AU Mod.

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by nbarclay


A poll asking people whether they would be likely to use a Mythic Hero difficulty level would be compatible with the normal AU Mod procedure. We don't normally do it, but in this case, such a poll would provide the panel with useful information without undercutting the normal procedure.

The reason I characterized your poll as breaking from the normal AU Mod procedure is that it calls for an up-or-down vote on a proposed change and, worse, started the vote before discussion even reached a point of placing a change officially under consideration. I'm not questioning your motives, nor am I trying to make a big fuss about it. But the practical effect of such a poll does contradict the procedure we established for making changes to the AU Mod.

Had you suggested we poll that question, instead of an up-or-down vote, I would have done so. The fact that you didn't do so, means that you can say nothing of it. And second of all, I do not see anything that was posted after the poll that would have effected people's choices with regards to either side of the debate.

[nbarclay]

Again, I'm not trying to make a huge fuss here, but take a look at the timeline. You suggested the idea of a poll at what, in my time zone, was 1:00 a.m. on December 26. You posted the poll at what was, in my time zone, 1:09 p.m. the same day. My next post regarding the Mythic Hero issue after you suggested the poll was not until 2:15 p.m, after the poll was already posted.

I did see the suggestion for a poll in between the time you made it and the time you posted the poll, but I didn't want to respond off the top of my head without thinking about the issue a bit, and you moved so quickly that I didn't have much time to think - especially since I was asleep during much (and probably the majority) of the time involved. So I resent your idea that just because I didn't speak up quickly enough during the limited amount of time you allowed for possible discussion, I have no business saying anything now.

I'll repeat once more: I'm not trying to make a big fuss about this. But in the future, I think it would be better if polls aren't posted without allowing a lot more time to discuss whether they are needed and what form they should take.

[alexman]

I don't think this sort of change belongs in the mod.

Yes, many players are stuck between Emperor and Demigod, but the jump between those two levels is small compared to the jump between Deity and Sid. I would add a level after Deity before I would add a level after Emperor.

But more importantly, there is the fact that if you add a level between Emperor and Demigod and remove Chieftain, it will affect the score of all games of Emperor level and below. This would make AU mod scores uncomparable to stock scores for a given scenario (such as AU courses). Many players use score to compare their games to others' in an AU game, especially in the early part.

Even more importantly, goody-hut outcomes are hardcoded to the order of difficulty levels, so the proposed change would give better huts to all levels on Emperor and below. That's a difference from stock that can affect strategy in some cases.

If there is strong support for a fun level between Emperor and Demigod, I would suggest changing Chieftain into that level, and living with the nice goody huts and the low scores that would come at this level. But I don't think it's a good idea to re-order the difficulty levels.

[nbarclay]

Alexman, you appear to have missed my edit to the first post. My latest idea is to add a new level and move Demigod, Deity, and Sid up a slot, with Mythic Hero fitting where Demigod is now. So it would be the levels above Mythic Hero rather than the ones below that have their scores and hut outcomes altered. Since almost no one is currently playing on those highest levels in AU games, the impact would be minimal. If we reach a point where more players are playing on Demigod or higher, we could reconsider. On the other hand, with Mythic Hero inserted in between Emperor and Demigod, an accidental side effect that makes levels above Mythic Hero a little harder wouldn't exactly be a horrible disaster.

I agree that the jump from Deity to Sid is bigger than the one from Emperor to Demigod. Indeed, looking at the normal progression, it's at least what would normally be expected from a jump of two difficulty levels. If there is significant interest, I would certainly view adding a level in between as a good thing. But unless and until I see interest in actually playing on such a level, I'm skeptical about the value of adding one.