A neat bug

[pvzh]

I found one neat bug in the editor. It is possible to enable improvements with Tourist attraction flag. Tourist attraction is allowed for Small/Great Wonders. However, if you switch a desired improvement to a wonder, check the flag, and then restore improvement status, this flag is actualy works despite being greyed out.

No other option of wonders works for improvements the same way though.

Anybody wish to put something like this in AU mod? Like tourist attraction on palace to increase a peanlty fo palace jump.

[joncnunn]

Personally, I think that losing your palace by any means ought to throw your govenment into anarchy.

[alexman]

Cool bug.

But why do we need an extra penalty for Palace jumping? If you jump by abandoning your capital, then there is already a penalty because you lose your city and its improvements. If you planned it well enough not to lose city improvements, then you paid the price already by not building any improvements in your capital, and you deserve to get the benefits of the jump, IMHO. If you jump with a leader, then you sacrifice a Wonder or Army, so there is an even higher penalty there.

Also, with the C3C corruption model, the Palace jump is much less beneficial.

By the way, pvzh, check the AU mod panel thread.

[bigfatjonny]

In reality goverments often change their centre of government, and monarchy's often change their palaces.

[ZargonX]

I can't really think of any regular improvements that would need the flag added to create any sort of balance/benefit in the mod. However, from a purely amusing standpoint, it might be fun to tack it on to a few things

[Moonbars]

we could add it to the Colleseum, boost for Mil civs if we make the Coll. military.

[alexman]

Instead of reducing its upkeep, like we have now! That's a great idea.

That way you get (a small) motivation to build this expensive improvement early, when it's available, and you eventually (after 1000 years) get a more efficient happiness improvement than even Cathedrals.

[Modo44]

Cool idea. But it needs some testing, because the cash could become really big over time. Meaning, that building Colosseums might become a no-brainer for some civs.

[alexman]

The maximum is 14g per turn, which happens only after 2500 years. That means you would need to build your Colosseums by 500 BC in order to get that bonus by 2000 AD.

Let's see an example. Say that you build a Colosseum by 510 BC, which is quite early, given other early-game concerns. Then you would be paying 2 gpt maintenance for 1000 years. You would need until about 1100 AD just to break even with the current version of the AU mod (1 gpt maintenance). You would get your full maintenance money back by 1400 AD. That's an pretty long time to wait to get your money back. Still, it's an option you might want to think about.

If you delay building the Colosseum until 500 AD, then you cannot get your money back before the game ends. See the graph below.

Of course, a Militaristic civ would be crazy to build a Cathedral before a Colosseum under these conditions, but I think that's no different than it is for Religious civs now, who would be crazy to build a Colosseum before a Cathedral.

A non-Militaristic, non-Religious civ would probably choose to build a Colosseum as a happiness building early in the game (say, in the BC years), but would probably choose a Cathedral later in the game instead. That's a nice balance, I think.

[Modo44]

I see. Basically it would depend on the impact the reduced cost will make. It will change the number of cities that can build it early. We don't know exactly how this works, because the changes are new.

[alexman]

We kind of know. There is no change for non-militaristic civs. For militaristic civs, a half-price Colosseum is as expensive as a full-price Temple. Of course, you need to have Construction, so you would not be able to build it as early as you can build a Temple.

[Modo44]

Alright, but what about a massive Colosseum build, if both changes apply (cheap Colosseum, cash-giving Colosseum)? To see what I mean, check your last game with a Scientific civ and count how many Libraries you have built BC. I just did on my part, and it was quite a few. Now, if the same thing was done with Colosseums, and all of them would start giving you cash over time... the effect could be game breaking IMO.

[alexman]

So we agree that the change is no problem for non-militaristic civs, who get full-price Colosseums? Good.

For militaristic civs, I'm not sure scientific-civ Libraries are the item to compare. Half-price Colosseums are 50% more expensive, and they require 5 techs instead of 3. Also, building the Colosseum in the BC is not really enough. You would have to build it before 500 BC to make any sort of impact (see graph above). I may be wrong, but I doubt you would be able to build more than 5 Colosseums before 500 BC without seriously sacrificing other important early-game priorities.

Finally, note that with a tourist attraction Colosseum, you need to invest gold early in the game (maintenance) in order to get your rewards later. That gold might be used more effectively by upgrading troops and acquiring more territory, for example (especially with militaristic civs), so it is by no means a no-brainer.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by alexman
So we agree that the change is no problem for non-militaristic civs, who get full-price Colosseums? Good.

Yes, we do. They'd have too much to lose by investing so many shields early on.

Originally posted by alexman
For militaristic civs, I'm not sure scientific-civ Libraries are the item to compare. Half-price Colosseums are 50% more expensive, and they require 5 techs instead of 3. Also, building the Colosseum in the BC is not really enough. You would have to build it before 500 BC to make any sort of impact (see graph above). I may be wrong, but I doubt you would be able to build more than 5 Colosseums before 500 BC without seriously sacrificing other important early-game priorities.

Those 5 colosseums would do how much? 50gpt by 1000 AD? Not bad. And, if I use my Philosophy beeline in a more creative way, I'll get more of those and/or earlier. Remember that, even though they are more expensive than Scientific Libraries, the Militaristic Colosseums are still well within reach for big and medium cities. This is the point I am not so certain about, as the recent change to the Colosseum has not been explored in-depth yet.

Originally posted by alexman
Finally, note that with a tourist attraction Colosseum, you need to invest gold early in the game (maintenance) in order to get your rewards later. That gold might be used more effectively by upgrading troops and acquiring more territory, for example (especially with militaristic civs), so it is by no means a no-brainer.

Pfft, I say to this. In my experience, building those Libraries as a Scientific civ, doesn't hurt me at all. Sure, the benefits are different than those of a Colosseum, but in this case you get the cash back by lowering the lux slider earlier than normal.

But what it really comes down to, is, that I don't consider building upkeep as something to be worried about. In almost all of my civ games so far, the only real problem about city improvements was, that they diverted my production from units. The cash they required almost never became important - if I could build them, I had the gold to sustain them.

However, getting cash from structures can be very powerful, and that's why I see those Colosseums as dangerous. Just think of them as a free Smith's Trading company for Militaristic civs.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Modo44
Those 5 colosseums would do how much? 50gpt by 1000 AD? Not bad.

In order to get 5 colosseums give 50 gpt by 1000 AD, you would have to have them all complete by 1250 BC.

In almost all of my civ games so far, the only real problem about city improvements was, that they diverted my production from units.

OK then, what would you rather have by 1000 BC as a militaristic civ? 5 Colosseums or 10 extra Swordsmen? At the very least, it's an interesting choice.

However, getting cash from structures can be very powerful, and that's why I see those Colosseums as dangerous. Just think of them as a free Smith's Trading company for Militaristic civs.

And since when is Smith's dangerous? It's a nice Wonder, but not dangerous. With the changes to Armies, Militaristic civs might need such a boost in the AU mod. And it's not really free, you still have sacrifice something significant to build those early Colosseums.