Training Succession Game 201

[Dominae]

Originally posted by wertyu70
Besides, What's the right action to do with Wines Plains?

Mine, until out of Despotism, then irrigate.

[punkbass2000]

Yes, for all intents and purposes a Wines plain is a BG.

[punkbass2000]

"If you guys have time, could you outlay plan/work list for tiles/workers that makes sense?"

Time isn't so much the issue, to me. It's that I think it would be more helpful for you guys to play 'as usual' so that we can then critique. I don't know useful it would really be for me to just tell you what to do. It would have some value, I think, but you may as well follow one of my other two threads ('AU Peace Deity' and 'pb2000's AU Madness Log') to see what I would do. Also, we'll be less likely to end up in a position like TSG 101, where we simply led the pack from the beginning. This will give us more opportunities to learn tech-trading, effective war tactics (ie. high kill ratios), etc. Also, playing from a non-dominate position is generally a better way to learn, IMO, than from one where victory is all but ensured.

[dmd175]

PB, good idea - we will learn, you comment. I have followed the peace deity thread a bit and will read more carefully. Possibly a chance I'll have time tonight to play - ok w/ wertyu and everyone?

[wertyu70]

Here are my ten turns:

2110 BC Continue exploring on West side

2070 Worker3 ready in Niniveh, start granary.
Worker3 moved 7 to BG
Veteran Warrior survive 3 barb attacks and now he is Elite.

2030 Wine irrigation is ready, worker2 moved on BG.
Veteran Warrior waits to recover.
IX Corps spot barbarian and an orange border.

1990 IX Corps avoid barbaria but Clark is in danger, I move him on Mountain to get a defense bonus.

1950 Clark survive to 1 barb attack, but another barb is ready to attack him.
Worker2 finished mining hill, moved east to improve plains and to prepare a connection with the second wine.

1910 Veteran warrior fortifies on the hill near the barbarian village. I hope this will help to protect my cities from barbarians.
Worker2 start irrigating plains.
Clark survived another attack and he is ready to explore again.

1870 Worker1&3 finished mining BG, starting Road.

1830 Babylon granary is ready. Let's start a settler.

1790 Worker1&3 finish road, I move them to BG south of Niniveh

1750 IRON WORKING!
Worker1&3 start mining on BG
Worker2 finished irrigating plains, start road.

[wertyu70]

The save and some questions:

1) Should we try to attack the barbarian camp?

2) Once I discover Iron Working, I start studying Warrior Code because of our UU.
Is it right or is it better to focus on other techs, such as the wheel?
In my Regent and Monarch game, I usually beeline to Philosophy, so I don't know what to do now.
Since I have just set it on the last turn,
The next emperor can change Science goal without losing a single beaker.

3) What about next city?
Is it better to found it on east side, near the wine,
or on West side, to grab land and neglect it to English?

[dmd175]

Thoughts

1) I think we can leave the barb camp for the immediate moment. Once we get a spare few units we can kill it (we just want to watch out for massive uprising).

2) Tech: I'm not a fan of WC in general. I realize it gives our UU. Again, however, I do not want to have a UU triggered GA with 2 cities. I vote for holding off our GA, and thus switching away from WC for now. (OTOH, I realize that AIs probably like to trade for it; OTOOH, I'm pretty sure England already had it, and we have no other partners to trade with)

That being said, what to research? Go for republic I guess would be my strat and I think I will implement here. I assume we are not going to have wonder crutches in 201, so I'm not letting that influence the decision.

2a) Did you trade IW all around to get us tech parity? If not, I will do this as best as I can. This is an upper level technique that I have slowly come to realize is important on civ3 higher levels. This also happened on TSG 101 where I did not promptly trade philosophy and everyone on the board wondered why not.
2b) Is there an iron resource anywhere? Didn't see on map. Will investigate.

3) Next cities: I vote to block England. Westward Ho!

Will play next 10 later.

[dmd175]

1750 BC (end of turn): dmd175 surveys all known lands, which are destined to become dominated by the Babylonians, and is pleased at the sightings of three hundred square miles rough terrain with minks, sables, etc. Vast veins of iron ore are spotted NE of Babylon and near the known English frontier. We must control both sources.

Tech trading...umm, right...We only know English. They will trade us either wheel, masonry, or WC for IW; no luck on alpha.

I could not get any two techs for our current gold 71 + IW +5gpt (though both masonry/wheel and masonry/WC were "getting close"). I have to eat my words then about trading (sorry wertyu), I'm going to wait a turn or two and try to eke out more gold to get 2 techs from England. However, should note that we can crank out WC in 12 turns with 0gpt or wheel in 15. Anyhoo, I start on alphabet b/c it is the most expensive available (so if we are stuck at 50 turn research in the near future, at least it is the most efficient 50 turn research), it leads to republic, and it gives curragh (= chances to find tech trade partners, assuming we have a coastal city )

1725 BC: IX Corp N. Clark W. Runs into Hurrian camp to his west.

1700 BC: English get mysticism; found Hastings; building Colossus in London. Barb camp killed by Clark. Using this 25 gold, I can trade English IW, 91 gold, 4gpt for masonry and WC. Sad, painful, but done . We are behind them by mysticism, alphabet, wheel...but ultimate vengeance will be ours.

IX Corp W...England has nice territory, rivers, flood pains, cow, one gems in a border, probably Hastings. Note that there is no logical MM on Babylon away from the 2/2/2 BG, because there is no higher food or trade available.

1675 BC: Clark ambushed, killed. Requiem.
IX Corps W. Worker2,1 NW.

1650 BC: IX Corps W, and sees ocean. The English land is small (yea), which means they will expand E (uh oh). Note also that London must be on a coast given colossus. Since London must be the city with the culture expanded, it is the flood plains/sugar city, and that means England might not have that much room South either.

Worker2,1 roading.
Veteran attacks and wins N, -1hp (I know, attacks warrior on mountain, but the risks were high with that barb threatening our two workers).

Settler done. Promising city spots are few, and far away. I for example would like to settle near the furs, the iron, and the sugar/lake. All are about 7 turns away. It would be helpful to have comments on what others would have done with city placement here. I entertained two major locations, both to get iron, either 4 turns NE from bablyon, or 6 turns NW from babylon. I went with the NW, which is 47777777 from Babylon. I'm unhappy with this location, but feel I don't have many robust options, want to block England, get
a coastal city, and want to possibly cut England off from iron, which hopefully might be a key in holding them off.

[dmd175]

1625 BC: IX Corps south. Veteran S.

1600 BC: Babylon kicks out warrior Home Fry. Settler in 6 turns. Veteran rests, IX Corp SE. Worker1 N.

1575 BC: Worker 2 NW, 3N, 1 77. Veteran W. IX SE. Nineveh granary pop rushed (saved 7 turns).

1550 BC: Policeman SE to kill barb, 1-hp. Settler NW.
UGH England has founded Canterbury and claimed all three furs.
Veteran S to claim Harappan camp, sees barb galley. IX Corp SE to see London, w/ spear.
Worker 3 NW, 1 and 2 road.

1525: Well, pop rush was (temporarily) bad in that Nineveh now requires me to have lux to 10%.
IX Corps noted London went from 4 to 2 pop, so another settler on the loose. Our settler NW. Workers roading. Police NW.

1500 BC: Elizabeth wants us to leave (IX Corps spots unfortunately LOTS of land S of london). Bab borders expand. Ashur founded. Worker 1, 3, IX, and Police all move N.

[dmd175]

1500 bc

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by wertyu70
The save and some questions:

1) Should we try to attack the barbarian camp?

There's no real reason to taje out the barb camp, except if we really could use 25 gold. It's generally better to keep it around and use it as a target range for our troops, as elites can never be trained in a city. Also, I noticed you had opportunities to manipulate the barbs a bit. Since this is a mountainous area, try and set it up so that two barbs will attack a 4/4 Warrior on a mountain. When a unit has two victories in one turn it automatically gains an experience level.

2) Once I discover Iron Working, I start studying Warrior Code because of our UU.
Is it right or is it better to focus on other techs, such as the wheel?
In my Regent and Monarch game, I usually beeline to Philosophy, so I don't know what to do now.
Since I have just set it on the last turn,
The next emperor can change Science goal without losing a single beaker.

My research would primarily depend on what techs I end up with after trading. Generally, though, WC is not a good choice. IIRC it is the cheapest tech in the game, or at least tied for that title. It's also a starting tech, so you can probably trade for it plus the fact that everyone will probably have it which will make it even cheaper. Beyond that, it's not a very useful tech when you already have IW. Usually I try to research a tech that's expensive and that the AI is less likely to research. Generally I'm not so much looking for techs that are useful in and of themselves; I'm looking for trade value.

3) What about next city?
Is it better to found it on east side, near the wine,
or on West side, to grab land and neglect it to English?

I'll need to look at the save to answer this one.

EDIT: Upon evaluation, I would try to grab the Furs and Iron, as an overall denial and blocking move against the English, who may be our only neighbours.

[punkbass2000]

Sorry, not much time left to comment, dmd, but I think waiting for the gold to get two techs from the English was worthwhile and was a good reason to abolish that camp. Also, we may want to settler there soon, so having it out of the way could be beneficial in the future.
As for blocking the English, try to assemble a unit of three "extra" Warriors. That's generally how many you need to block any one settler team without a DoW.
The other thing I would mention is that I would place Ashur closer to Canterbury (two tiles away) such that it can take some Furs away from them via culture. This is a prime pop-rush example. If you're Religious, and border city that produces 2fpt and 1spt will be able to pop-rush a Temple 10 turns after founding. This is the sort of situation where an early Temple and a pop-rush can be both be quite useful.

[dmd175]

PB, you are right about placing Ashur closer. Would have been a better move. That being said, we can still settle 77 or 777 of Ashur and take away some furs. The question is how much of a priority is it -- ie our next settlers might be wisely deployed closer to Babylon to settle the river/plains and grassland.

[Modo44]

I'd go somewhere near that sugar and the lake south-west of Ashur. This would close Babylonian borders against English expansion. Sure, the AI will try to send something through anyway, but I don't think it's ready to fight yet. Another city south of Ashur, and it should be enough claimed terrain to stop the AI for some time.

[Dominae]

Put a city on the Hills tile just East of the Cattle. Irrigate the Grassland just South of the irrigated Wines to bring fresh water to the Cattle. Build a Granary in that city.

With so much land available, you are better off expanding into it rather than trying block off the English. You need Food boni and Granaries to expand better.

Or you could just make a bunch of Swordsmen and claim the whole continent for yourself the "easy" way.