Training Succession Game 201

[punkbass2000]

But you're then losing two whole turns, virtually negating any advantage you could possibly gain, short of a minimum of two cows that can both be accessed by a river capital without border exapansion yet not with in the radius of the original spot.

[Dominae]

punkbass, the presence of a Cattle/Wheat/Wine just outside the starting location more than makes up for the lost turns moving the Settler. This is something you have admitted already by saying that if a bonus Food resource were visible but not accessible from the starting location (say, the Settler starts on a Hills tile), you would move the Settler toward it. If you are not convinced this is the right play, I suggest again that you try a couple of test games to see which ends up on top.

(Consider that, if you find a Cattle on Grassland, your city grows in 7 turns, which is 3 turns faster than without any bonus Food. So your Settler could walk around for up to 3 turns and still end up growing at the same time as if you had not moved it at all.)

So what you are arguing for is not the lots time in terms of movement of the Settler, but movement of the Worker; if you move your Worker onto the Hills and do not discover anything interesting, the Settler is free to found your capital on the starting location as before.

Now, I'm a big fan of the Worker-turn efficiency, but in my experience it has very often been worth my while to waste a turn or two of Worker movement in order to make sure I will found my capital at a locally ideal spot. What you gain from mining that Bonus Grassland two turns earlier is two extra Shields, which can admittedly speed up production on something a whole turn (or, a extra 2 Beakers can be just what you need to research that tech on turn faster). But these things are less advantageous than irrigating bonus Food faster, because more Food is more growth, which translates into more pop, which translates into both more Shields and Commerce. So if I had the choice between irrigating a bonus Food and exploring with my Worker, I would certainly irrigate.

But the situation here is that there is no bonus Food to irrigate. So the choice is between wasting 2 Shields (2 Commerce) and gambling that you will find a better starting location, or not wasting any Worker-turns on a sure thing. Again, in my experience, the gamble often pays off, and when it does not, I rarely miss those 2 Shields and 2 Commerce.

[punkbass2000]

Ok, but I'm not arguing you should never move your worker to find better starts, just not here. This is a very good start as far as I'm concerned, despite the lack of food bonuses. I don't think wasting three turns, in this case, if unsuccessful, is a risk you need to take. As I said at the beginning of my first post to werty, I wouldn't term that move "incorrect" by any means. Much like chess, opening play in Civ often provides several reasonable choices. The only difference is that there are more random factors in civ. IMO, this would be a '?!' (dubious) move. At best it could be '!?' (interesting), without presuming any outcomes, any way. I don't know the actual chances. If its 50-50 chance of viewing an +2 food bonus or FPs, I'd at least say you're right for SP. For MP, I don't know that it's worth the risk. Do you want to lose a PBEM a month later because you wasted turns with your worker? Assuming no AI, you all start out equally (give or take), and the loss of three random worker turns could easily mean the difference between getting the only Iron on a 2-civ-continent. Both from the lost revenue, but also the immeasurable damage of haing every road three turns behind, losing many worker and xploration turns at the least, as well as getting that aforementioned city founded with that 1 move settler.

[wertyu70]

Played the first 5 turns.

3450 BC
Clarke moved 4, worker1 start mining, set slider to 8,1,1 to avoid civil disorder.
Since I need only 3 shileds to finish worker, I worked a grassand near the river for 1 turn to gain an extra trade.

3400 BC Worker2 ready, start building another warrior for 'police service' and because I fear the barbarians. Lewis is ok now so I move him on the mountain.
Slider to 9.1.0 since now population is 1.

3350 BC Lewis North, Clark West ignoring hut because I fear barbarians. Worker2 reached worker1 to speed up tile improvements.

From 3350 BC to 3250 BC Only Exploring.

On Next turn the warrior will be ready. What build next? We need 14 turns to reach size 3, so we can exclude settler. We have already 5 units, maybe it's time to start to build something (barracks? Temple?)

[punkbass2000]

I would consider a Barracks at this point, Babylon probably isn't going to be a particularly good worker or settler pump and we don't have Pottery anyway. Probably the best city for that will be one that can use those Wines. Early military becomes more and more important at higher levels as the AI starts with more units and gets more with each city. Lord help you if you start too close to the Germans on new difficulty level, as they have both WC and BW and get free Spears and Archers.

[wertyu70]

3200 BC. New warrior ready, I rename him 'policeman'. He stays in town bacause of a barbarian near Babylon.
Starting barracks.

3150 BC. Workers finish to improve BG (mine+road),
I move them to near forest to chop it down and speed up barracks construction.

3100 BC. Lewis finishes to wxplore north, let's go East.
Clark on mountain discovers gems.

3000 BC Barbarian is near Babylon, Policeman attacks him and wins. Now he's veteran but town is without a policeman, so I need to rise the luxury slider. I wonder if it was a good move to attack the barbarian.
Forest is chopped, workers start building road.

[wertyu70]

And the saved game

[punkbass2000]

I normally wouldn't attack a barb with a warrior, but I think you still get a small bonus on Emp plus he's a conscript so it's not too big a risk.

[dmd175]

Wow. Looks like I missed the start of this second game. Punkbass, I'd like to try to join in but this week is terrible for me. I'll follow and try to participate; am I right that there is no set play order (yet)?. Thanks for setting it up.

[punkbass2000]

Nope, no play order. IF you could do one round this week that would be good, otherwise I'll see if werty wants to do the next ten as well (assuming no one else joins), as I don't want to run into the same problem as last time where I (and other professers) and play relatively too many turns and make the game too easy. Even commenting on your guys reports and having debates, etc., makes it easier, like when Dom, Modo and I just start assuming and stating as though obvious where next cities should be, what builds should be done, etc. In any case, even if you have no time whatsoever this week, you can always join to play 10 turns whenever you feel like (give or take, of course). Nothing is ever really "set" with a SG.

[pvzh]

I played this game from 4000 BC upto industrial. I would say it is somewhat "hard" game to be a first game on this level. You put raging barbarians (or restless: there were many horsemen in uprisings) and fewer than normal opponents. Both are no good for the first game. Because barbarians are too much distraction for the REX and fewer opponents gives more land for these pests, plus small number of opponents do not let you to practice tech trading which is a big difference with earlier levels. But in general very good game.

[punkbass2000]

Yes, barbs were Raging, as per request in TSG 101.

Are you sure there are too few opponents? For one thing, I know for sure there are six, and I'm almost positive I selected a Small map as well as the 'All random' selection for civs, which would override any 'None' selections. You, of course, may be right, but I do find it hard to believe I missed both of these things when setting up the game.

[Tarquinius]

Nice initiative Punkbass. And this game seems to be more interesting than the first

I'd want to comment on a few things though. I agree with you that trading for techs is easier than researching them, but with a river start my first tech is almost always Pottery full blast. Granaries are key structures, and it is dangerous to rely on getting it from the AI IMHO. Another point: if no AI's can be found Warrior Code should be researched by hand as well, because Bowmen are nice against barbs.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
I would consider a Barracks at this point, Babylon probably isn't going to be a particularly good worker or settler pump and we don't have Pottery anyway. Probably the best city for that will be one that can use those Wines. Early military becomes more and more important at higher levels as the AI starts with more units and gets more with each city. Lord help you if you start too close to the Germans on new difficulty level, as they have both WC and BW and get free Spears and Archers.

I would never build a Barracks in this position. I am not an expert player by any means, mind you, but in my opinion a granary (on pottery, view my previous comment) or even a temple is much more useful here. A Barracks, why? I can see no AI yet. Barbs can be fought with regulars (and Bowmen are good against barbs anyway). Even when an AI comes into play, then you can just placate and rex like mad. When rex is underway you can nominate a city for military production (here probably Babylon).

Also, I don't like the early worker build. Babylon grows in 10 turns, so let it be at size two a little longer. I would have popped out an early settler, and build a granary in the second city near the wines or the cow.

Just my opinion in this, I am just curious why you played like you did

[Modo44]

Even with Granary, you won't get a Settler very often here, because no food bonuses are ready to be used. So you'll have "spare" time, producing other things. Sure, a Temple is nice, but only useful when the city grows bigger. For now, units to explore, and (if needed) defend against the AI, are much more important. And you don't want to have Regular units. Even with a Religious civ, the Barracks should go first IMO, except when aiming for Cultural victory.

[Tarquinius]

Still it will go faster with a granary. And a Barracks delays founding new cities (near food bonuses)