Training Succession Game 201

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Modo44
C'm on. Like I had to tell you how easy it is to get Philosophy with the AU Mod.

I don't believe the Babylonians had any knowledge of how easy it would be to get Philosophy first, nor that they're "AU universe" was any different than any of the parallels.

Also, players new to Emperor might not find it so easy. Beyond that, even if I do find myself able to trade for Writing by the time I discover IW, If there are a few Com/Sea civs around, (of which there are three, and please don't ask/post how I legitimately know, I consider it an exploit and wouldn't use it if it weren't for this discussion) and it's generally likely there are, as ~1/4 of the civs are, they may easily beat me to it, especially if I don't end up with contact with them.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by punkbass2000


Though not a bad move, and certainly not "incorrect", per se, I personally don't tend to like to move my initial settler without a particularly good reason. Every turn at the beginning of the game is crucial and cannot afford to be wasted. I will move my settler no more than one square, generally speaking, and only if I see a cow or something extremely valuable.

I believe wertyu70 was suggesting that you move the Worker onto the Hills tile as your first move, not the Settler. Given the relative "averageness" of the starting location, this is probably what I would have done too.

Neither of us states exactly when we achieved Writing, but at 2110BC (40 turns in) Dom't 29 turns from Phil and I'm still 38 away. As you can see, we probably didn't achieve Writing for at least 30 or 35 turns anyway.

Still, that's almost twice as fast as 50-turn research (and I probably got it in about 20 turns, taking into account REXing, growth, and new improvements). I almost never do 50-turn research anymore: I find that the money you save for upgrades or whatnot can easily be manufactured later, either by cutting off research for a short while, or (more commonly) through all the AI's Barb Gold - obtained in exchange for the techs I research at top speed.

Admittedly, I have been doing this as a knee-jerk reaction for quite some time, and I have no evidence to show that it's a best practice. It works well for me, though.

---

Have fun with this one...hope it lasts longer than the first!

[Modo44]

Punkbass -> I see. True, it might be difficult, with the low initial growth this start gives. I guess the tough Philo beeline will be the subject of the next succession training then.

Dominae -> Why not? If you can get (or have) Alphabet early, doing the 50 turns for Writing usually gives you a full sweep on technlogy, while preparing the cash for Philosophy. And with the AU Mod, even squeezing Pottery first is sometimes possible. Or is it possible to research something else, then go for Writing, and get both in under 50 turns?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Modo44
Dominae -> Why not? If you can get (or have) Alphabet early, doing the 50 turns for Writing usually gives you a full sweep on technlogy, while preparing the cash for Philosophy. And with the AU Mod, even squeezing Pottery first is sometimes possible. Or is it possible to research something else, then go for Writing, and get both in under 50 turns?

I'm not sure what you mean by "full sweep on technology". As for "preparing cash for Philosophy", I typically have enough Gold through trades involving Writing, which I get much earlier than 50 turns.

On the difficulty levels that I play (Demigod and Deity), it is no sure thing that I will get to either Writing or Philosophy first. The Gold that I would save on 50-turn reseach is worth very little when the AIs have surpassed me technologically (good luck trading for Philosophy and Code of Laws, not to mention all the other earlier techs you missed out on, with Gold alone). If I try 50-turn Writing and a strong AI gets it before me, the discount factor goes to waste because it does not help me take turns off the 50. Put another way, if I speed up my reseach from that point on, say, turn 20, then I will have wasted time during those first 20 turns because I only have 20 Beakers put forward toward Writing. And, unfortunately, the AI will not be willing to trade me Writing at low cost, because I only have 20 Beakers on it. The Gold I saved is usually not enough. I would rather the AI beat me to Writing when I have, say, 200/250 Beakers on it, because then I can trade for Writing at much reduced cost and keep going on my Philosophy beeline. On Deity (stock rules), it's not rare for me to lose the race to Writing, but win the race to Philosophy.

On Emperor and below, it seems to me like I gain very little advantage in slowing the tech pace down by doing 50-turn research. What do I really gain from having 200 Gold in my Treasury so early? I suppose I could upgrade my troops faster. But I prefer to reaching Philosophy at top speed, taking all the AI's Gold, and setting the Science slider to 0% (or, say, research The Republic at a 50-turn pace) to generate the necessary income for the remaining upgrades at that time. In either case, I generate the necessary Gold and end up ahead in tech. The difference is that in the Philosphy beeline at top research, I do not run the risk of having my plans foiled by some overseas KAI that I do not know about yet.

Another minor but not inconsequential point is that, with a large Treasury early on, the AIs are more likely to attack you because your Power rating is high. Given the style I most often adopt, "almost no military, defend yourself with diplomacy", having a low Treasury is critical to defending my interests. While researching Writing or Philosophy, my true strength is hidden in my accumulated Beakers, which do not (I presume) factor into the Power/Score rating. So the AIs think I am less threatening than I actually am. Of course, when I finally hit Philosophy my Power/Score jumps significantly, but by that time I have enough of a military to prevent disaster. Even if I do not, with all the trading that happens at that point (and setting up of Emassies), the AIs are very happy with me.

[Modo44]

Sorry, I keep forgetting that playing huge maps makes things... a bit different (for the AI and for me). Of course I would go for Writing at maximum research, if I could. It just doesn't happen with the map size I usually play. So doing 50 turn research for Writing is not much of a choice, if you want to have the tech - it's simply forced (on Emperor, sometimes even on Monarch). And, of course, it gives all technology in trades, if you can start it before AI does. Again, sorry for the confusion.

[nbarclay]

Regarding ways of knowing who the opponents are, if the space race victory condition is enabled, going to the space race screen with F10 and clicking "view space race" will tell you. Whether and to what extent that should be considered an exploit is, I suppose, open to debate. (Of course knowing who the other civs in the game are doesn't tell you which ones are nearby.)

[Dominae]

Even with the Space Race trick, you cannot tell if an overseas AI will beat you to Writing or Philosophy. They might get lucky and obtain Alphabet or Writing for a Goody Hut, or they might have a crazy multiple-River Silks start. It's happened to me too often on Demigod to take the 50-turn gamble anymore.

[punkbass2000]

Damn you both, I specifically asked that the exploit not be posted. Take that trash out of my classroom. Oh, and spit out that gum! Not chewing doesn't fool me!!

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Dominae


I believe wertyu70 was suggesting that you move the Worker onto the Hills tile as your first move, not the Settler. Given the relative "averageness" of the starting location, this is probably what I would have done too.

He certainly was. Since he wants to do that for the purpose of moving the settler, presumably, I think you will see how my response was on topic. And I think waiting to settle would have been a waste of time on this map, personnally. As I mentioned, that would waste three worker turns.

[Dominae]

Do you still think it would have been a waste of time if there had been, say, a Cattle resource 47 of the starting location? Or (if you would have seen this last one by peering under the darkness) 77, across the Hills?

Given what the map acutally turned out to be like, it was probably best just to stay put. But the promise of a bonus Food resource is worth a wasted Worker-turn.

[punkbass2000]

Yes, but there is no promise, only rumour. You can't run around in 4000BC throwing away turns like they're going out of style. Also, in this case, that would be a loss of three worker turns.

[wertyu70]

Thank you for the answers,
I still haven't start playing and I have already learnt something!

About moving the WORKER on the hill:
My Idea was to look for some hidden special resources
but as you pointed out, it's better not to waste turns at Emperor Level.
I need to lost my bad habits from lower levels.

I'm going to play the following ten turns today as soon as I come back from xmas shopping with my wife.
And I will accept every criticism by veteran people,
because I know I will do a lot of mistakes.

[Modo44]

The worker move was a mixed bag. Basically a gamble. Personally, I'd go for it, but it might as well backfire, wasting the turns. I consider such gambles a personal preference, rather than good or bad strategy.

Or has anyone done the math on the actual probability of the worker finding anything by moving on that hill?

[punkbass2000]

You people are too picky This is pretty nice start, IMO, a river, plenty of grassland, plains and hills. A food bonus, etc., is far from necessary. Also there are plenty of good reasons not to move given the starting info. First of all, to the SE it is clearly coast, so you're gonna want a city on that coast 2 tiles SE. Thus, moving your settler NW simply reduces the overall number cities you're gonna have on this river. Second, you're never gonna want your worker to improve your hill first; it would take a damn long time and the best you could do would be up trade by one in six turns. Third, you're moving away from the only hills in sight, leaving you only the one the worker is one (presuming you're not putting your capital on the hill itself, which you shouldn't, IMO), not to mention a BG. Fourth, even if, as in the best case scenario, you uncover a juicy cow at 47, you still lose a turn moving your settler, while gaining only two fewer turns until growth. Beyond that, after the first ten turns of starting on the spot, you will get that cow anyway. So, on the offchance that there is in fact a cow there you gain two extra turns at pop 2 and, if I'm not mistaken, four extra turns with 3fpt, though you lose one turn off everything else (whatever you're building, culture [and doubling], research, hower much gpt you might have produced, etc.) If you move your worker and there is no such resource, you simply lose three worker turns; a much more likely outcome. And what if it's "just" wheat either you don't make the move and lose three worker turns, or make the move and have the above tradeoff plus you're giving up a BG for a wheat (in the short run, 1fpt in return for 1 spt). Probably a good deal on its own, but probably not worth it given all the other losses you will incur and the fact that you may not even be so lucky as to get wheat. One question to those advocating moving the worker: Do you play (in essence, anyway) all random starts and play regardless of terrain or "mistakes" you make in this situation (like moving the worker and finding nothing, or not moving the worker and later discovering there cows at both 47 AND 77, etc.)?

[Modo44]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
One question to those advocating moving the worker: Do you play (in essence, anyway) all random starts and play regardless of terrain or "mistakes" you make in this situation (like moving the worker and finding nothing, or not moving the worker and later discovering there cows at both 47 AND 77, etc.)?

I don't play very bad starts on Emperor (not feeling confident enough, yet). But if the start looks ok (mediocre or better, essentially), then I will play it, even after a "useless" worker move.

You forgot to mention, that the worker on a hill could have spotted some nice things two tiles away, in which case moving the settler and moving the worker might make sense. But, like I said, it's a gamble.