AU 504 Glory of Culture DAR 5 - 50K Culture

[nbarclay]

How long has it taken you to reach the first half of your 100K culture, and how have you gotten there? How are you doing culturally compared with the leading AIs, and how is the tech race progressing? What does it look like you'll need to do to win the game from this point, and what strategy do you plan to pursue?

[Modo44]

Gandhi the former Warmonger

Monarch level, AU mod

50000 culture reached in 1395 AD.

After dispatching China and Persia there was peace. And it would stay so for a looong time, though probably not until the end of the game. But for now, I researched Democracy and switched - to help my workers finish all jobs before railroads would come. Ando to have more money - the gpt difference was about 150 in plus, so quite nice.

Basically I was doing reasearch a little bit slower than I could (at around 6 turns per technology, instead of 4), while developing the land (20 workers and about twice as many slaves). The surpulus cash was pumped into my growing empire, providing it with infrastructure - culture first. I started out at about 3 times more culture than the Iroquis KAI, but with balanced rushes (not only for culture) fell back to less than 2,5 times that. So for some time now all my cities have all cultural improvements moved to the front of the build (or should I say "buy"?) queue. Right now I have size 4 cities in the tundra that lack only Universities (still to come...). The Iroquis are still gaining on me, but they seem to be running out of cities to build in, so this should end soon. Perhaps my Cavalry will help a little - that remains to be seen.

The Iroquis stayed in Feudalism and they declared on me twice so far. No unit ever landed, even though the second declaration was followed by a large fleet. Are they afraid of something?

I heve more and more cities producing only units (Muskets and War Elephants), with all buildings finished. Since I'm far ahead in technology, I'll probably research Nationalism and send a Riflemen/Cavalry party to party on foreign soil. I'm still only at 41% landmass, so conquest won't spoil my win. Right now I see only 3 small islands (1 city each) free to claim, and have only Colosseums and Universities left to buy. We need more land.

It looks like my game will end somewhere in the Industrial times. I have 3 Medieval techs left and a huge tech lead (sold Education to the Iroquis while in Democracy...). Probably should have played Emperor.

Here's the Victory screen in 1395 AD. The empire looks almost the same as it did 1100 AD - only the land improvements are nearly everywhere now.

[jshelr]

Here is info up to nearly 1500. I put it in this thread earlier, before the official threads were up. there is a link at the end to bring you back here.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122521

[jshelr]

I was asked for dates and culture scores. Will look back and try to find some

Answer edited in: At the same date as Modo's save above, on emperor, we had only 20% of the world's land area and 29k culture. That was a culture lead, but no where near double the Iroquois.

I'll bet we find out that those who actually built cuture early did worse than those who built military units early and wiped up both the Persians and the Chinese. Mine was a really successful technolgy game and we built everything in sight. It's not enough

[Arrian]

Picking up my notes from DAR IV:

940 AD - Trade construction to Germany ( ) for Furs. Sell Feudalism to Spain for 15gpt, 40g.

960 AD - JS. Bach's complete, Knights Templar complete. My people love me.

Having upgraded all of our horsemen to WE's, spears & pikes to muskets, cats to trebs, etc, we remove our unit from the chokepoint and predictably China's units flood in, trying to get to Persia. You kmow what's coming. Silly me, I probably shouldn't have done it this way.

980 AD - China declares war after refusing to leave our territory. We begin pounding their forces with trebs and finishing them off with Ancient Cav (no need to trigger the GA just yet). An Indian "explorer" cuts China's iron.

990 AD - Our explorer cuts China's saltpeter (not that they can see it) and then is destroyed.

1000 AD - China has a LOT of troops. Holy crap. War Elephants enter the fray and our GA beings.

1020 AD - Magellan's complete.

1030 AD - Copernicus' complete.

1050 AD - This pissed me off. A 6hp elite War Elephant attacks a redlined pikeman on flat ground (unforted) and loses. That's pretty much a description of my combat luck in this game thus far.

1090 AD - Nanking, China's iron + saltpeter city, finally
falls.

I saved and quit in 1100 AD.

I will get some screenshots up when my DSL comes back up. As for our status vis-a-vis a culture win... we have roughly 50% more culture than the Iroquois (something like 18k to 12k). We're the runaway leaders in population. The Ottomans have been reduced to an OCC, with the Iroquois making most of the gains. They still, however, lack iron (which I was tempted to trade to them, but decided against). I think I did trade iron to Spain, though. I hope to make Hiawatha at least break a sweat over there.

China is a PitA. I will take them down, but I could REALLY use an army to help. I most likely won't get one, because my combat unluck has extended to unit promotions. I have exactly 3 surviving elite units: one WE, one Crusader and one AC. Sigh. So I will plod along and take one city at a time, circling around Beijing so it is one of the last to fall (that way I only face the capital defense bonus once, or at least only face it in a size7+ once). I'm now on a beeline for Cavalry, which I should have done before. I think I'm a couple turns from Metalurgy.

Persia should go down much easier, and come to think of it that's what I should have done. Desire for the Pyramids and general hatred of a strong AI neighbor led me south instead. The truth, however, is that the Pyramids won't do much for me since most of my cities are maxxed out anyway. I've had my wheat town pumping workers the whole time... except during the GA, which I've used to build a cathedral & a library (culture). It will go back to workers once the GA ends, though.

I have stuck three towns on offshore islands, and probably should have made more of an effort there, but it's no big deal. I now have a Chinese island city in the north to deal with, which is irritating, but maybe my allies (Persia) will nail it for me.

-Arrian

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Arrian

So I will plod along and take one city at a time, circling around Beijing so it is one of the last to fall (that way I only face the capital defense bonus once, or at least only face it in a size7+ once).

That way you will wait additional turns before putting Granaries in all of your cities. And gaining some cash for the ones already in place. Also, Beijing is in a position that probably keeps some of your troops occupied? I say take it fast and be done with it.

Originally posted by Arrian

we have roughly 50% more culture than the Iroquois (something like 18k to 12k)

That's 66%, not 50%. Quite a lot, if you ask me. And if the Iroquis fare like KAIs usually do, you will have trouble keeping up in culture even after taking your whole continent. Kick those Persians fast.

[Arrian]

Well, the Iroq have 66% of my culture, yes. I was saying I have 50% MORE than them (50% of 12 is 6. 12+6 = 18).

That way you will wait additional turns before putting Granaries in all of your cities.

Yes, but:

The truth, however, is that the Pyramids won't do much for me since most of my cities are maxxed out anyway. I've had my wheat town pumping workers the whole time... except during the GA, which I've used to build a cathedral & a library (culture). It will go back to workers once the GA ends, though.

The Pyramids actually won't do much for me, except in captured (Chinese) territory. You're right that I may need more in the way of garrisons this way, but I really hate dealing with a 100% defense bonus (50% for size 7+, 50% for capital) over and over and over again. Thus, I want to take all of China's size7+ cities and THEN nail Beijing.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Is there any real net advantage other than speed in upgrading War Elephants to cavalry in the AU Mod? With War Elephants having 5/4 the hit points vs. 4/5 the attack value, the actual attacking power is probably about the same. (On the other hand, a cavalry army is definitely nastier than a War Elephant army.)

[Modo44]

Both units can retreat, so the additional attack point should probably matter more than HP. I had Elephants loose to Spearmen on hills more often than Cavalry would have.

[Arrian]

I think I'd go with a mix (all fast-mover stack, with WE's covering for defense and added attack if needed, with the Cavs being for nutcracking).

Edit: Ack, I'm gonna miss the normal 6 attack. I was really looking forward to Cav. I need to look at the readme again... don't I get to 6 attack later (nationalism?)?

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

Emperor Level, AU Mod Rules

War with Persia resumed with the expiration of the peace treaty in AD 1120. By that time, India was up to six crusaders and twenty-three war elephants. Persia fell city by city, trebuchets pounding the cities before units attacked, with the last island stronghold falling in AD 1270. (For islands, India did not bother with trebuchets because transport capacity was very limited.) Along the way, Persia actually managed to retake the island city of Ergili very briefly.

Steam Power was discovered in AD 1290 and India started work on its rail network. In the meantime, the Indian military was busy heading south to China, with the trebuchets pausing for upgrade to cannons along the way. India launched its invasion of China in 1300 with a heavy force including cannons moving next to the capital while armies landed outside an island city China had built. In 1305, the war ended, and with it China's existence.

But Gandhi was not finished yet. He had plans for the conquest of Germany, and part of those plans included replacing his feudalistic society with a communistic one. That necessitated research into Nationalism and Communism. (With the Iroquois still four techs away from the industrial era, waiting for them did not seem like a particularly useful option.) In the meantime, cities that had run out of better things to do built war elephants and musketmen for the upcoming war and to fend off any possible invasion.

After considering the possibilities, Gandhi decided to target the former Arabian lands that had become western Germany as his initial invasion site. The crossing there was reasonable, and silks near the coast could fairly quickly replace the furs that India had been importing from Germany. Rather than try to ferry over an entire invasion force at once, Gandhihad his ambassador talk the Ottoman sultan into allowing the prepositioning of Indian troops in Ottoman territory next to the target.

But in AD 1330, before the invasion could begin, three Iroquois knight units landed just north of an island city that was defended by only two war elephants. The war elephants did their best, but were ultimately defeated. India then had to retake the island before launching its invasion of Germany.

Interestingly (and very conveniently from an Indian perspective), Germany decided to launch a war with the Iroquois. The relative size and power of the two militaries guaranteed that there was no way Germany could win, but every German offensive unit killed by the Iroquois would be one that India would not have to face. Better, the war ended without the Iroquois capturing any German territory.

India's war with Germany finally started in AD 1370, just a turn after India finished changing governments. Six galleon-loads of troops that had been landed previously moved into German territory, and four additional loads, including two bands of settlers, joined them. Germany had recently learned how to use Gunpowder, but the only saltpeter in their territory was located in a desert on an island and not been connected.

At that point, the Iroquois were at about 59 percent of India's culture and (I think) still growing at just a hair under half of India's rate. But India's conquered territory was still coming up to speed, and the conquest of Germany would provide still more territory to build culture in. India's ultimate capacity for cultural victory was not in doubt, but whether the victory could be won before the Iroquois reached 50K culture without having to attack the Iroquois was.

(I don't have a save from exactly 50K culture, but this is only about three turns away from it.)

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Arrian

Edit: Ack, I'm gonna miss the normal 6 attack. I was really looking forward to Cav. I need to look at the readme again... don't I get to 6 attack later (nationalism?)?

The idea of having an upgrade to a 6-attack version of cavalry with Nationalism was considered but rejected. (For the record, that happened before I was on the panel.) Actually, now that you have me thinking about it, I think we might want to revisit that issue, but I'll post about that in the appropriate thread.

[Modo44]

Pretty good luck with the Iroquis. They are strong, but far from a KAI. Meaning, the second half of the culture race should be easier for you. After all, they don't have an entire continent full of cities, so they should run out of places to build new culture in. You won't.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Modo44
Pretty good luck with the Iroquis. They are strong, but far from a KAI. Meaning, the second half of the culture race should be easier for you. After all, they don't have an entire continent full of cities, so they should run out of places to build new culture in. You won't.

Try telling the Spanish that the Iroquois aren't a killer AI - if you can find any Spanish to tell. My Iroquois certainly aren't in the same league as yours, but they haven't exactly been sitting around peacefully either.

[Arrian]

Mine are strong and could get stronger. They stomped the Ottomans, with some help from Arabia (I doubt the Arabs had much effect). Without iron.

Oh, that reminds me of something I was pondering while playing this game:

If an AI civ has access to iron and horses, it doesn't build horsemen. It's all swordsmen, which the AI clearly thinks are better than horsemen. If, however, an AI with horses either lacks iron or loses its iron, it WILL build horsemen (and longbowmen).

Such is the case with my China. Through the first meatgrinder war and part of the second, I didn't even think they HAD horses, because they had zero fastmover units. Then I cut their iron, and horsemen began showing up. Considering they are now up against large numbers of War Elephants, that doesn't help them.

What does this mean (other than the obvious: the AI isn't likely to upgrade many horsemen to knights)? It means that the ironless Iroquois probably have a sickening number of Mounted Warriors.

-Arrian