AU 504 Glory of Culture DAR 3 - Middle Ages/Home Continent Explored

[cracky]

Monarch, AU mod...

General: Not all that many turns have passed since DAR 2. I'm currently at 70 ad. I inadvertently started my golden age by completing the Colossus, with the SoZ already built. Luckily I had just recently transitioned into a Republic, so I'm not all that worried about having my golden age this early. Almost all tiles have been improved (at least in cities that are more than a handful of turns old.) This allowed me to finish the Great Library as well. I'm not turning off research until I finish Chivalry however, since I have some conquering to do I've stopped building workers in Bombay finally. I'll actually put it back on workers once some culture buildings are finished. I'll definitely need more workers once I take over China... One thing I've improved on so far is my worker management. Usually once I have about 8-10 workers I start setting them on auto-improve. I've managed to avoid this this time, but I've run into another small problem. I have too many mines I need to start some of those workers irrigating.

Culture: Libraries and Temples are completed in most cities, with courthouses and marketplaces on the way. The early Pyramids from a Writing SGL was a huge boon. You can see I'm building The Great Wall in Bangalore. Normally I don't go for this wonder, but most other wonders are built and I didn't want to waste the shields (I'm hoping someone else will discover Monarchy and let me switch to Hanging Gardens). As for wonders, I have the Pyramids, SoZ, Colossus, and the Great Library. Sun Tzu's will be started in Dheli once it's current build is finished. So, I think I'm doing pretty well on my culture score. It might be time for some suicide galleys to see how the other continent is doing...
I normally don't go for the Great Library. But since we're going for the culture win, all the extra cash from turning off research seems like it will pay off quickly. I certainly need cash being in a Republic with so many size 6 and smaller cities. I wasn't quite ready for either Republic or my Golden Age, but somehow I think I'll manage.

[cracky]

Quick question...

If I capture a wonder I don't get the culture it produces, right?

Or do I get any culture it produces AFTER I capture it?

[Modo44]

I think you don't get any culture from captured wonders, ever.

[Tarquinius]

Update on my game; AU Mod Monarch.
I had a pretty succesful Ancient age. I had used a tight spacing, so I could build a lot of culture buildings.
I also needed more space, to build even more culture

So, the Chinese had to go. I built Chariots and upgarded them to horsemen and attacked China. They were pretty weak. I rolled over them quickly. I had a great stroke of luck during this period, I almost feel embarassed, but I got 3(!!!) Military Great Leaders!
The first became a Horsemen Army; to be able to build the Heroic Epic. The second one, you can see him on the pic, rushed the FP in Beijing in 110 AD. This was very nice, as it made the Chinese lands productive. When I reached the Middle Ages I had destroyed China, and tried to build/upgrade some War Elephants.

So far in this thread. The Cinese situation in 90 AD:

[Aqualung71]

A Great Hosannah – The Saga of the Guru Ravi Shankar, Chapter III
Emperor Level, AU Mod

Ravi was extremely happy with the progress of his developing society. Many citizens had been trained as Workers, and the population growth rate was climbing, possibly due to the nation’s women adopting Ravi’s own policy of reckless hedonism. Indeed, should his own seed be fertile, there would be many more Indians running around the world……alas (or perhaps, fortunately), the Cup of Life also destroyed his fertility. Well, at least he doesn’t need to wear condoms!

With the secrets of Map Making and Literature now possessed by Indian scientists, Ravi began to feel the pressures of administering a growing and prosperous empire. His people demanded more land, so the birth rate had to be maintained. Training programmes for developing Workers must be redoubled, as more developable land comes under Indian dominion. Ravi’s own lust for culture could now be fed, with plans for Libraries having been completed by his architects.

The Temple building programme was continuing and surprisingly was ahead of target, as Ravi did not trust his Minister of Religion, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

“That charlatan Maharishi has been duping me for too long”, Ravi confided to his Minister of Music, Keith Richards. “I know he is pocketing vast sums of money from the state Religion budget, yet he still manages to build the required quota of Temples”. Keith responded “Yeh man, I don’t trust that dude either. My mate Mick told me the Maharishi put a spell on his hot chick Marianne Faithfull and had his way with her”. Ravi made a mental note to have Miss Faithfull brought to his bed-chamber for an “interview”.

Keith’s ramblings interrupted his fantasies…… “Hey man, I need a hit…..pass me some of that Incense will ya?”. Keith had “hit” on a pertinent point. One short term objective for Ravi was to settle the Incense rich peninsular in the distant north, a wild area apparently characterised by its rough hilly terrain and offshore Whales . This would bring further stocks of tradeable goods to Indian warehouses. As for Keith, his only job for the time being will be to teach Ravi how to play this frustrating Sitar that George left to him. At least until a Theory of Music can be learned, at which time he will be in charge of building the JS Bach Cathedral. The thought made Ravi shudder, and he quickly turned his mind to more pressing matters.

As Keith departed from the Guru’s presence, his chanting slowly grew more faint

“Turn off your mind, relax and float downstream, it is not dying, it is not dying
lay down all thought surrender to the void, it is shining, it is shining
Then you may see the meaning of within, it is speaking, it is speaking
That love is all and love is everyone, it is knowing, it is knowing
When ignorance and haste may mourn the dead, it is believing, it is believing
But listen the colour of your dreams, it is not living, it is not living
Or play the game existence to the end, of the beginning, of the beginning……”

Ravi shook his head in bewilderment….. “that guy needs a detox clinic”

“India must develop a sarong military!”, Ravi demanded of his military advisor, Field-Marshal Montgomery. ”Surely you mean a strong military, old chap?”, replied Monty. “Yes, well they should be strong too….I guess”, was Ravi’s response. And thus through a typo was the dress-code of the Indian military established. Ravi was no military strategist, as you can guess. But with the loyal and capable (albeit somewhat eccentric) Monty in charge of developing India’s armies, Ravi felt confident that his India would soon become a strong and mighty nation.

Ravi had also recently appointed a new “Admiral of the Non-Existent Fleet”, Lord Nelson (a strange Christian name, thought Ravi, though it’s better than Horatio). Nelson’s task was to change his title to “Admiral of the Fleet”, and he needed to build lots of ships for that! Another task of Nelson’s was to start exploring the oceans for other peoples of the world for Ravi to dominate.

Ravi also had a secret desire to start developing more Wondrous buildings, in order to firmly place Indian culture at the forefront of the world. His prophets had foretold that if he erected a Statue in honour of the Greek god Zeus, Ancient Cavalry would start pouring from it as if by magic. Ravi secretly thought this was a ridiculous idea, but he loved the plans! His main project though would be to drag his civilisation into the Middle-Ages, and he needed his scientists to work particularly hard for that. Ravi wanted to be the technology leader of the world!

Meanwhile, time goes on…..

975BC: The wretched Chinese demanded Map Making from Indian scientists. Unfortunately the cowardly fools gave it away before Ravi rose for the day. India is now looking for new scientists, and Ravi has begun plotting against those upstart Barbarian Chinese.

The town of Forest Chop is founded amongst Forests (duh!) east of the capital near the border with Persia. There is very little available land further east.

825BC: Mathematics researched. China has Code of Laws, but won’t trade it. Ravi is no longer sure that he wants to trade techs anyway

800BC: The town of Hsung-Nu is founded west of the canals, named in honour after the tribe of savages who gave us the secrets of Code of Laws in return for their lands. They will surely live to regret such a deal, but Ravi decided that when they start complaining he will build them a few casinos Anyway, this was a most fortuitous discovery and has saved India’s scientists a lot of time and effort.

750BC: We reach a milestone for Indian culture, as the foundation stones for the Statue of Zeus are laid in the town of Mountain Bay, belatedly the first Wonder the Indian civilisation has attempted to construct However, this town is now well set up as a wonder city, with Temple and Granary and no need for an Aqueduct.

The town of Eastern Oasis was also founded, stealing land from the Chinese who will not be impressed. Monty plans to use this town together with Marlboro Country (with Yul Brynner and Steve McQueen at the head of a Horseman army of course!), as the launchpad for the initial invasion of China using 2 stacks of units in a pincer movement. The Persian Spearman and Warrior perched on the choke point within Ravi’s lands are now becoming tiresome, but Monty has been slow to develop India’s military and dares not ask them to leave! The last thing India needs right now is more Immortals….one is enough!

730BC: The first Library in the Indian civilisation is completed in Gold Mountain. Ravi congratulates his Minister of Education, Harvard, who immediately began a tradition that would continue until modern times. He asked for more funding

710BC: Mysticism is researched, and Polytheism is next. Ravi is now firmly convinced that a Monarchical system of Government is preferable for the Indian peoples, for the time being. He had considered dabbling with a Feudal system, but felt that with a war with China not too far away, Monarchy was a safer choice. Being of a Commercial disposition helps with corruption and waste, and Ravi also fully intended to move to a Democratic system as soon as he possibly could.

650BC: The town of Windbreak is established, behind a row of 3 mountains on the Northwest peninsula.

590BC: Greenfields founded in the middle of…..you guessed it – grasslands!....on the western peninsular.

530BC: The town of Poly-poll founded amongst all the Bananas on the border of Persia.

490BC: Polytheism discovered. Monarchy next.

430BC: Meanwhile, Nelson has managed to make an important breakthrough on the Naval front, with his state-of-the-art Galleys (well, we are still in the Anicent-Age after all). India has now met the Ottomans after a very lucky Galley trip across the eastern ocean…..and traded them Philosophy and Code of Laws for Construction. Ravi hopes this fortuitous crossing of the oceans will allow his envoys to meet more civilisations.

410BC: Nelson’s Galley comes across Spain, and Ravi agrees to trade them Philosophy for 84g. He is rather taken with Isabella.

390BC: Arabia has now walked into view, but have nothing to offer Ravi. We’ve also met the Iroquois, who appear to be rather war like. Monty was not happy to learn of their existence!

290BC: War may be approaching! China demands Mathematics, backs off, but moves an Archer into Indian territory. Oh well, it’s almost time to start fighting for more territory anyway Ravi was proud that Monty had been able to develop enough Swordsmen with the recently acquired Iron, to call China’s bluff.

70BC: The first Indian Wonder, the Statue of Zeus, is completed in Mountain Bay, and Ravi immediately calls on his people to make him their supreme Monarch…..which he already kind of was anyway, so I don’t know what the fuss is all about! Something about better control over the state treasury and better food harvests.

30BC: The streets of Holy Grail resound with the sound of fanfare….trumpets blare and the world’s first crowd-control officers - snake-charmers - wander in the streets playing tunes to their slithering companions, effectively ensuring that the crowd turnout for the celebrations of Ravi's new Monarchy is kept at a minimum as the citizens prefer the safety of their own hovels.

10AD: As the years grind onwards and a new millennium is declared, Holy Grail finally develops birth control and stops producing Settlers. As an indication of what is to come, the city starts work on a Barracks. Meanwhile, the much anticipated “Year Zero” passes without the Armageddon predicted by the Prophets….nor is any messiah born in any part of the world. It turns out it was all an elaborate hoax dreamed up by the permanently stoned Maharishi.

30AD: Finally Currency is discovered, and India enters the Middle-Ages, thus ending volume III of A Great Hosannah – The Saga of the Guru Ravi Shankar


Overall, Ravi is happy with his progress. The lack of any high-culture Wonders concerns him a little, but he has plans to rectify that in the medium term. In particular, he somewhat regrets his decision not to pursue the Great Library which was finally built by Persia in 570BC, as this would have provided extra cash and substantial culture.

The military build-up is in full swing, with Swords and Horses being produced for the first assault on China. It is vitally important to cripple China before they are able to build their Riders in any quantity. The Horses will later be upgraded to War Elephants for the Persian war to follow.

Indian scientists have a slight edge over the rest of the world, with all 5 of the 6 civs discovered so far all trailing by only Currency, but possessing the useless (to India) Republic tech. Arabia is 4 techs behind and looks to have a limited future. It is rather notable that 5 civs are all exactly equal in tech, probably due partly to Indian trading. We may have one more round of trading to bankrupt them all, or we may decide not to trade further.

Not having played for a Culture win before, my 2000-odd culture points at this stage looks rather paltry, but there will be a fair bit of doubling up in the coming years plus Cathedrals and Universities, so maybe it’s not so bad.


The state of Ravi’s Empire at 30AD:

Towns: 20
Settlers: 3
Workers: 21 – worker pump still operating
Warriors: 8
Spears: 5
Swords: 11
Horsies: 4
AC: 1
Galleys: 2 – both rebuilt after the Curraghs sunk
Temples: 18
Libraries: 8
Colosseums: 0 – should build some, but currently building military

[Aqualung71]

And the map (minimap edited to remove the other continent):

[Aqualung71]

...and the all important Culture graph:

[Krill]

AU 504, DAR 3: Emperor and AU mod.

825BC, China declares war, stockpile the choke points with my Vet spears. I get one every 2 turns from Bangalore, and one every 4 turns from Kolhapur. I also produce 2 reg spears from Karachi. I garrison the mountains south of the western CP with 2 spears/mountain, and shove everything else in Jaipur (Eastern CP). It pays off, with China taking the long route to Jaipur, and losing about 8 swords to a hill town with walls and (forted) vet Spears.

670BC, China surrenders Tientsin and 13 gold for peace. I plan on shipping some units over there to launch diversionary attacks while my main SoDs travel through Jaipur.

610BC, build GL. 90% tax, 10% lux. time to start on those suicide galleys and that new SoD...and that switch to Monarchy...

470BC, The Arabs have been destroyed. oh, crap...

270BC, finish MoM in Bombay, so that monster is going to be on non stop wonders. I'm ai ming a prebuild at the Hanging gardens, since I will be needing all the happiness I can get, and then at Leos.

190BC, I am now earning 100gpt, and have 1850g in the bank. Time to start building the warriors, me thinks...

150BC, last Settler built in Dehli before the Palace jump, which moves the Palace to Bombay (Please note that I set it to build a palace before the jump, so I still have that nice and big 316 shield prebuild for something). Build New Dehli on the ruins of Old Delhi, and start to set up the new worker pump.

70BC, Finish the SoZ. Go to one turn warriors, so I am now at about 2.5 warriors/turn.

50BC, build FP in Bengal (No where else to build it that would benefit)

50AD, I have got board of researching Poly @ 50 turns, so I up the rate to 80% and research it in 4 turns. I have 1845g, enough for alot more upgrades. On reflection it seems that the GL was a complete waste, since the only techs it has given me are MM and HBR. My new plan is to research Monarchy ASAP, switch and build the hanging gardens, lower the slider and then rush a ton of cats and horsies.

130AD, Turns out that Monarchy wil take 9 turns to research @ 80% tax, but the prebuild will be done in 6...So I swap all the BG for normal Grasslands I can, and prey

230AD, get CoL from the GL (this is one slow tech pace, but on the plus side I have 34 swords...and I am paying for them. 1gpt...best add in those workers then.)

(Unfortunatly, my computer crashed and I lost all my data until 300AD. The basics are that I built HG, after losing 97 shields on the prebuild due to forgetting the size of the palace (400 shields) and HG (300 shields). I also start to kill persia with my 34 swords Researching Currency in 4 turns and raking in 23 gpt as of 300AD, although I really need aquaducts to pump up the size of my cities. I am building toons of cats, and Bombay is going to be churning out wonders for most of the game, but ATM the largest prebuild there is in that city is a lib...)


320AD, cut the southern Persian iron supply, and my swords are kiling tons of immortals. My only problem is that I am losing tons of spears to Persia .


400AD, I finish researching Construction, and enter the MA. I set research to 80%, and Fued, and it turns out that I will have it in 9 turns. I despotism. Is this normal?? (btw, Persia also landed a lone regular immortal in my core. My fastmovers deal with him).







You may find it amusing that I am still in despotism, and have a greatest GNP (311), MFG (121), Productivity (387), and Annual income (9/capita) in the whole world.

[Modo44]

Originally posted by Krill
On reflection it seems that the GL was a complete waste, since the only techs it has given me are MM and HBR.

It will either let you catch up on the ohter continent or not let them catch up. Most important is: it will get you Monotheism and Education faster or it will prevent anybody else from getting them faster - either way promoting your cultural growth. Even without that, the Great Library is one of the best cultural buildings available. Definately not a waste in this game.

[Aqualung71]

Re: Gandhi the Warmonger

Originally posted by Modo44
Yes, I went straight to Republic. The reason was, I didn't want to lag on technology, when I met the others.

Modo, I would guess that you were saved by the fact that your switch to Republic coincided pretty closely with the activation of your GA. Otherwise, with a smallish empire and using the AU Mod, you may have been a lot worse off under Republic then Monarchy due to support costs, which can effectively cripple your research capacity if you switch before you have significant numbers of Libraries/Marketplaces (which would have been unlikely given the early stage of your game).

Since you were also going through a military build-up, how did things look when your GA ended? I would guess that thsi is where the Commercial trait really helped (assuming you had a decent number of cities by then)

[Modo44]

I think you are overestimating the size of my military. I'm usually keeping a very smallish offensive force ("non existent" is what many a player would call it ). Like I said in my DAR, I had just enough units for my first strike against Beijing and only luck made me fare better in that war. Anyway, I'm used to having so few units, not even the AU-modded Republic can hurt me.

[edit]I did have Temples and Libraries nearly everywhere before going to war. Final Libraries were finished in the core during my GA, but they were up for rushing anyway... Currency wasn't there for some time after the GA.[/edit]

True, it might have done minor damage, and that's what it does usually in my games. But not with the great start we had available here. Add to that the commercial trait I seldom play with. Thanks to those two things I barely even noticed the switch. The GA was nice, but it was not nearly as crucial to my surviving as you might think.

Most important thing: I never experienced a large scale military buildup, not until the endgame. I let Delhi grow to size 12 very fast, so it could churn out units with the occasional up-to-date building thrown inbetween. Also, I had the SOZ, which is the builders dream (Bangalore was building wonders and still adding some units to the rooster - what more do you need?). This made other cities go 100% pure builder through most of the first half of the game. Later Bombay and then Karachi joined in the building fun. Also, Knights Templar was added to the SOZ in Bangalore. And believe me, you only need a couple of those monsters of cities (Again - great starting location!) to have the upper hand over the AI.

To proove my point, here's the "grand" Indian "army" in ancient times. Note that the surpulus is still healthy after the GA ended (I was still rushing buildings in China at that time.). The first shot is during the first Chinese war, with many units en-route to the battlefield. The second one is after that, during initial skirmishes with Persians:

[Modo44]

Yes, I do take heavy losses in wars. That keeps 1) the support cost low and 2) the fun in the game. My way to go is: build offensive units just before the war, smack them good in it's begining (having precise primary goals helps), do whatever you can with light reinforcements (secondary and bonus goals), sign peace (switch to next target ).

I should note that I was keeping the defensive military slightly smaller than normal. Protecting my borders was fairly easy. I am used to more difficulties doing this - I love pangeas, preferably starting in the middle. That's also a reson for few early bombard units (I built only this one Catapult that upgraded to Trebuchet) - they are too slow to respond to danger in a timely manner.

And here's the Indian army at the end of this DAR, just after crushing through the Persian heartland. Notice the heavy Pikeman buildup. Mighty, eh?

[Mountain Sage]

30AD:
Traded Polytheism for Literature and 31 gold with China.

Not much happened until…

300AD:
Persia declared war on us!

AND

Contact with the other continent (after 5 galleys lost!). The Celts are still in the Dark Ages, as Arabia and Spain. Established embassies. Spain and Arabia are at war.

Our rexing is completed for the time now. the peaceful part, I mean

[Mountain Sage]

Our bright culture. Arabia already looks like our most important rivals.

[Mountain Sage]

And we are not even Number One!