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**Dominae** · March 20, 2004, 03:15

Well, I'm done... Domination victory. 5 hours and 12 minutes.

JUST KIDDING!

**Makahlua** · March 23, 2004, 21:33

A personal note to start - I have to confess I did the 'typical female' thing and cried when I won, nono don't panic it was happy tears!

It was 2 things ; winning a close game at a higher level than I normally play and the spaceship ending has always gotten me right there even since the first Civ. The line I mentioned in DAR 6 was from Contact, which is a favorite mvie of mine; I can't help but feel alot of the hope of mankind is in space and I just hope I get to se it in my life

(/end sentimental femaleness

)

1. What did you learn about C3C version of the Celts?

Wow, have they rebalanced them nicely!

I remember when people hated playing the Celts b/c of the high cost of the GS vs usefulness; now how can you live without them??

I think it's notable that even without being militaristic I got -5- MGL's in this game 2 on defense! (thanks in part to the heroic epic, but still!) Religious is still _very_ good, and agricultural when there are lots of rivers about is great

That 2 move is a killer, you do realize they have the same stats and fast unit ability as ACav?

The lowered cost allows you to produce good #'s so even against higher tech units you can kill em with #'s or take a beating and keep on moving to the next city before the AI can recover

2. About C3:Conquests in general?
Other than Agricultural was a-great- trait to add, and TOW is a PITA if you're lightly defended, notihng much new - though I reserve the right to add to that later!

Well and never underestimate the power of gangs of non-native workers to develop your lands.

3. Was there anything you would have done differently?

Well I'm still not micromanaging, I don't care if it -would- have given me UP on that map

MM = not fun to Maki

I like my UP now and again, but I personally get more satisfaction out of a close game like this; at no time did I really think I had it 'in the bag' and I -like- that feeling in a game.

For those of you looking at my core tin the screenies and wanting to point out that RCP desn't work - yeah I know but i have this 'thing' about symmetry (around the Capitol at least). ^^

The 3 power cold war late game was interesting; amazingly both AI went through a god chunk of the last DAR in -Fascism- and were still keeping pace with me! That probably speaks more to my lack of micromanaging, but still

Now if it hadn't been for the unecessarily huge armies both fielded, they might have gotten ahead in a Democracy, but with around 300 units each compared to my lean ~130, no wonder they were under Facism. I'm seeing why the AI gets swamped, economically speaking, in the late game; they hve no sense of balance between armies (measurabble power) and tech/production (kind of intangible but we know it when we see it). At elast one of us 3 knew how to run lean and mean! And as I repeated in the DAR's - if the AI could do a naval invasion worth a damn, I'd worry

As it was I just switched to military for ~20 turns to whistle up an army out of thin air and that was that for their silly attempts at attacks

I did have a 'blonde moment' with computers, forgetting that i'net is at -miniaturization-

At least I had SETI to turn that prebuild into

I wish I'd razed a couple of the cites in the tundra and reshuffled them; if Hamburg had been along the coast I could have fit a city in better on that IW spot in the north. Not that I knew where it was back then, but my new love of squeezing tiny cities in for money might have made me go there if I'd had room, Ah well

Watching the replay, I found out why the Sumerian capitol was Lagash instead of Ur; Germany had rushed -very- early on and Sumer didn't get it back until I called them into that pact agaist Germany! Crazy. I probably should have gifed Byzantium into the modern era, but seeing as they had no resources for modern units, I don't know that it would have helped much

4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?

Iroquois, for expanding in the south so fast and attacking me early when I was slow in getting a defender to a new city. And for trading techs around me to Sumer and Germany. At least I took out their horse source on our shared continent early in the first war; I realize I may have been over cautious by not pulling some galleys together and going after them on that isle in the first war, but I could see I was falling behind to the less-challenged AI's in techs, and new i needed to consoulidate, switch gov'ts and catchup or trade my way up (which I did

)

One thing I wish is that having a spy in a civ worked like infiltrating in AC - you could see what every city of the ai was building buy just glancing on the map - it displayed it the same way it displayed what your cities built. Would that be hard to code, I wonder?

5. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?

N/A, but I might give it a whirl sometime soon - maybe replay this one with it, or start a fresh game with it...and the Celts. Heee. ^^

6. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

Hummmm. Did you -deliberately- set up Paris for the IW? Not to mention no competion on their continent for the French? And did you stick that Iron and COal close together up north on our isle too? I'm pretty sure it was AI priorities that put Lagash on a uranium mine, though

The 1-tile oil ilse was cute too - and did you also deliberaetly leave Byzantuim without any lux or middle/ind/modern era resources?? Not mention the French, Inca and Aztec without rubber, and Inca/Aztec without coal earlier? And what was with the ocean lake? Too bad I didn't have a spot in the east where it was only one tile from the real ocean; it reminds me of the Freshwater Sea in AC

I noticed the only 2 volcaones on the map were near the original Iron I hooked up - and why did the AI settle right under them? Unless they exploded and Germany cleaned them up early on they never went off! o.O

Any easter eggs you want to disclose?

PS to Dominae - Now -Aeson- I might've hesitated longer before going "Nahhhhh', but you -are- a prankster

**Risa** · March 25, 2004, 06:11

1. What did you learn about C3C version of the Celts?
They have nice traits. Agricutural speeds up Rex, and Religious allow me change government during wars. Their UU - gallic swordsman - are simply strong. Being an attack-3 fastmover, they're useful from middle acient age to late middle age. The same as mounted warrior.

2. About C3:Conquests in general?
I didn't know communism is SO efficient before. It brings up my border cities, e.g. cities on SW island or Byzantine island, to about 60% in production, from total corruption. And that is before courthouse and police station! Corruptions in core city doesn't seems heavy, only about 10% to 15%, roughly equals to second ring under democracy. It doesn't have trade bonus, but reduction in corruption and much larger free unit support allow I have much the same tech pace as under democracy.

3. Was there anything you would have done differently?
Definitely. I should wait peace treaty with Byzantine expired before redeclared war. And also I would rather attack Inca than France. If not because AI avoids attacking army on open field like hell, I would lose all my invasion force in the first turn. About 300 units in that (relatively small) size of country! Really hard to believe...

One more thing maybe I should not do - pillaging Ur's surrounding tiles. Since it would be mine sooner or later, I should give them chances to grab more wonders, of course, for me.

4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?
France. They have strong economy, strong military, good numbers of luxury, and a perfect site of ironworks. Thanks god they don't have rubber... They own a full countinent, that is good because other AI can't harass them, disrupting their economy, but also bad because AI don't know the proper ways to handle oversea military actions.

5. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?
Thanks to flavor setting of the AU mod, it's my first time to try on "the Great Library Catapult" strategy. In stock games I always beat AI in race to the GL. The industial Longevity is another big change in gameplay, but it doesn't change in strategy very much. Increasing attack of infantry and guerilla, together with weaken artillery, makes artillery less important in industial warfare. Personally I don't like this approach, but AI does handle it better. Though I get a bit disappointed when I still get ToE without even struggle, and AI still loves upper-branch optional techs too much.

6. Did you find any Easter eggs?!
No in strict meaning (that is only eye candy, no ingame difference).
If we use a looser definition, Paris ironworks is definite one. Though it doesn't helps French too much in my game, since they don't have chance to build any wonder after completion of ironworks. Perhaps if I leaved French intact into modern age, it would play a difference.

Edit:
Ah, about that one tile island of oil, not much long after I discover Rifining, that source of oil dried up, and reappears in my core.

I also get ironworks in former german territory. Not coastal city as in Makahlua's game, but 2 tile north over Berlin, where AI normally doesn't plant a city (and didn't in my game). So I think it's not deliberate, just luck.

**Risa** · March 25, 2004, 07:02

Forgot to mention, this is my first serious try on emperor level. I'm not really used to those bonus units AIs have, so was killed by german early. On monarch level AIs don't have spare units to attack that early. I should learn to incorporate some defensive units building into opening plans.

**Chemical Ollie** · March 29, 2004, 07:43

Re: AU 502 Post-game comments

1. What did you learn about C3C version of the Celts?

They have improved (as if they weren't good before) Religious and agricultural is a nice combo, and the Gallic swordsman rocks all the way to the emerge of cavalry.

2. About C3:Conquests in general?

Minor, subtle things I can't really recall, but will use next time anyway

3. Was there anything you would have done differently?

Should have played on Emperor. I had UP from 10 AD and on when playing Monarch level. Less challenge than I'm used to, but I choosed Monarch because I usually get my backside handed to me on Emperor. The good starting position, combined with the Celtic traits and UU, and the fact that the Sumerians had no strategic resources at all, added up to the position of UP.

4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?

None really. This was an UP game. The hardest part was to retake an Iroqi city that had deposed back to them after my troops moved north to get the Germans, but it was solved in 15 turns or so.

5. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?

Not much. I started to build infantry instead of cavalry after researching Replacable Parts, and built plenty of special forces to paradrop over France if they would cause any late game trouble, but I had no use for any of those units, as there was no wars from Electricity and on.

6. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

I expected that there would be some late game resources hidden on the islands to the west, and there was. Taking those islands gave me monopoly on rubber and uranium, which increaed my UP position even further.

**Andydog** · March 29, 2004, 09:17

Science Victory 1870AD, Score 4039. AU Mod - Monarch

I chose Monarch level because I hate to micromanage. The only time I ever bother with MMing is when I PBEM. I think I’d like to try the next Uni game on Emperor though, what the heck.

1. What did you learn about C3C version of the Celts?

I’ve played them in C3C before and so knew the power of growth mixed with cheap happiness and culture. Plus, their UU is formidable, so all in all a very powerful civ. I imagine they’d be great for multiplayer because they’re a civ that can quickly adjust to changing circumstances.

2. About C3:Conquests in general?

I think I only played the Celts once in PTW, mainly because I’m more a builder than a warmonger, and so preferred the building civs rather than the militaristic ones. I was lucky with MGLs, scoring 5 of them in the end, and those armies pack quite a punch! I like this change from PTW. I was also lucky with SGL’s, scoring 3 of them in the end. I love the introduction of these as they help the builder a lot – I think war in PTW was waaaaay too overpowered.

3. Was there anything you would have done differently?

I should have upgraded my cats to trebs sooner, even though it would have added on about 5 or so turns to the war with Germany. I’d have saved a few swords, but I guess at the end of the day it wouldn’t make any difference - I was using nothing but armies in the later game to fend of the rogue AI’s anyway.

4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?

It would have to be the Iroquois, as they had more troops than any of the others. Later, France caused me worry because the declared war on me out of the blue, and I was trading 4 luxs with them. As it happened, I only lost a few WLKDs, so it didn’t really matter, but was still a nuisance having to switch wealth to cruise missiles – to take care of their ships. And boy did I sink masses of ships - the oceans around my south continent would be great for deep sea diving right about now!

5. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?

To be honest, I didn’t notice any huge differences, which I understand is one of the objectives of the mod anyway so I guess that’s a good thing. The AI seemed a bit smarter, and it was only later I found out that the Iroquois were set to be more aggressive. I definitely noticed a change in their preferred tech choices, which was nice. I enjoyed the fact that units seemed much more balanced, for example the ancient cavs. I’d really like to see a mod like this created for multiplayer!

6. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

The obvious one to me was that it cost zero gold to upgrade Gaelic Swords to Med Inf. I was tempted, but decided not to in the end as I was enjoying their retreat ability too much. I did upgrade a few to create med inf armies however, so saved some money there.

It was a nice game this one – thanks to Ducki and the rest of the Apolyton University lads!

**Makahlua** · March 29, 2004, 19:19

Andy - just wanted to add real quick that GS's upgrade for 0 normally in C3C - but who wants to give up the extra move so soon?

**Andydog** · March 30, 2004, 03:26

I didn't know that Makahlua - cheers for letting me know. I'm thinking back to the C3C game I played as the Celts, and if I recall correctly, I didn't get Iron until later in the game, thanks to the resource scarcety.

I enjoyed reading your DARs btw, learnt a few things from them too.

**Makahlua** · March 30, 2004, 03:42

Oh, wow, someone learned from me? I hope it wasn't the wrong way to do things

But I'm glad you enjoyed them!

**nbarclay** · March 30, 2004, 03:50

Re: AU 502 Post-game comments

1. What did you learn about C3C version of the Celts?

The Agricultural trait is nice, but it also makes the Celts a whole lot less focused than they were in PtW. With the Militaristic trait, barracks were cheap so the Celts could crank out a lot of warriors for upgrade relatively quickly. Now barracks are a lot more expensive, so it's a lot harder to get a large force for upgrade to Gallic Sowrdsmen early in the game. Further, because upgrade costs are higher in C3C, each warrior upgraded to a Gallic Swordsman actually costs a little more now than it did in PtW in spite of the fact that Gallic Swordsmen now only cost forty shields instead of fifty.

The end result is that the Celts are a vastly better REXing civ than they were before (at least when they have access to much fresh water), but it's probably a little harder to build up a decisive military force early while the Gallic Swordsman is at his most potent. (The reason I say "probably" is that faster growth can do a lot to offset a higher cost of barracks if there is enough fresh water available.) The end result is that focusing more on REXing and building temples and less on building barracks and warriors looks a lot more attractive. Also note that with the fast pace playing Demigod with the AU Mod, there really wasn't time to build up a decisive force of Gallic Swordsmen before Feudalism came along (and I doubt that there would have been even if I'd focused more on troops and less on temples).

2. About C3:Conquests in general?

This isn't exactly something entirely new, but I hate how the early game plays out on Demigod from most starting positions. I like the idea of facing more of a challenge than I usually do on Emperor, especially in the medieval and later eras. But starting in a big hole in any but the best of starting positions and having to dig my way out of it is not something I find particularly fun. I'll probably open a thread in the next couple days or so proposing new difficulty levels in the AU Mod that give the AIs the ongoing advantages of Demigod and Deity but not such a big head start.

Assuming the resource situation reflects the map generator rather than special efforts by Ducki, this game was also an excellent showcase of how resource scarcity in C3C can undercut AIs. I'll address that more in a separate post later.

3. Was there anything you would have done differently?

I should have started my Forbidden Palace around the time I conquered Sumeria, but I forgot about it until a good bit later. Also, I wish I'd been thinking about the shorter anarchy that the Religious trait carries when I decided to attack Germany because I might have done better switching to Democracy and waiting until later to go after the Germans. I'm really not sure whether that would have been a better move or not, but I regret the fact that I didn't think to consider the option.

4. Which civ gave you the most trouble, and why?

In terms of raw irritation, the Iroquois, no contest. Their trespassing scared me, disrupted my workers and build priorities while I was trying to REX, and left me in a constant state of annoyance for a long time. But ironically, they were also a considerable help in the way their long-running war with Sumeria left Gilgamesh and company with essentially no offensive forces to counterattack me with once I was ready to invade.

Later in the game, the Aztecs gave me a real run for my money in the late medieval and early industrial tech race. I'm not sure whether they got a SGL or what (in my game, they didn't control much more than half their home continent), but it wasn't until a war against the Incas kicked them and the French out of Democracy that I was able to really pull ahead in technology.

[/b]5. How did the AU mod affect gameplay?[/b]

I strongly suspect that Alexman's flavors had a lot to do with the tech pace that caused Feudalism to come so early (and cut short the useful life of Gallic Swordsmen as a primary attack unit), but I can't say for sure. Another thing the AU Mod might have affected, but that I'm not sure about, was the fact that the AIs made very extensive use of Feudalism as a government. (I'll be curious to see whether people who played under the stock rules saw Feudalism used much.)

The power of early Longevity in conjunction with Communist warmongering is pretty enormous: capture cities, grow them twice as quickly as you could otherwise, and use that growth for extra production and commerce. Longevity also makes the draft a more valuable tool, especially in governments like Communism that allow multiple drafts per tun and that can use conscripts as MPs. And the draft can provide a nice way to deal with the plague of "excess" population growth that people sometimes complain about in connection with Longevity. After figuring out what I can do with Longevity as a Communist warmonger, I'm more convinced than ever that the drawbacks of moving Longevity to the industrial era outweigh the benefits.

And as I complained about in one of my DARs, our Special Forces unit with amphibious assault capability let me finish off the Byzantines without the tradeoffs I would have faced if marines had been the only units available to me with amphibious capabilities. By any of our normal primary measures - helping AIs, making strategic choices more interesting, and preserving the feel of the stock game - the change worked against the goals of the AU Mod at least in my case.

6. Did you find any Easter eggs?!

No, but then I wasn't really looking either.

**ducki** · March 30, 2004, 11:52

Assuming the resource situation reflects the map generator rather than special efforts by Ducki, this game was also an excellent showcase of how resource scarcity in C3C can undercut AIs. I'll address that more in a separate post later.

IIRC, I only moved 2 resources.
France had (still) another Iron on their Continent, which I moved to the Byzantine Isle(I think).
The second, I think I shifted Sumeria's Ivory by a tile to try to get them to settle a little bit tighter around their capitol, and in my DEBUG game, it seemed to help a little.

I was thinking of doing a "Making AU 502" thread - a sort of Behind-the-Scenes expose of all the little things (and a couple of not-so-little things) I did to try to make the AI competitive, or at least a little less retarded than normal. I'm sure some of the things would open me up for flamage, but with Dominae's exit, maybe it will help some more rookie coursemakers be a bit more willing to step forward. While I worked very hard at keeping the tweaks to a minimum, there's a fair bit more to building a course than just generating random maps ad infinitum until you find a satisfactory one(edit: Which the folks that have made courses before already know. Not being presumptuous, I was just surprised at how much more there is to it than regenerating maps until I found a good one.).

I was quite surprised at the wide range of "luck" that everyone had, from Aeson's and alexman's very early defeats to Makahlua's impressive execution of the Monroe Doctrine. I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from that - if any. I did expect that some of the folks would run into problems, but I was definitely expecting more consistent results.

I ramble.
If there's demand for a behind-the-scenes type thread, I'll be glad to do the work. Either I'll be drummed out of the faculty for heavy-handedness or I'll shed some light on how small tweaks can encourage more competitive AIs(or conversely, encourage back-sliders).

**Rhothaerill** · March 30, 2004, 12:54

I'd like to see a "making of" thread.

After my less than stellar map for AUSG101 Dom sent me the same comments he gave you when I was creating AU210. There is a bit more involved than one would think and if anyone who hasn't created an AU course yet is interested in doing so then it could only help.

**Krill** · March 30, 2004, 13:35

Add another vote for a Behind-The-Scenes thread idea

**vmxa1** · March 30, 2004, 13:58

That could be useful ducki and no one should flame you. Flames should be held for people that are deliberately making trouble.

Being wrong is not a crime, being an ass may be one.

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