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AU mod: Wheeled units and impassable terrain

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  • AU mod: Wheeled units and impassable terrain

    The very first version of the AU mod, which was based on player1’s Patch Suggestion mod, prevented Tanks, Mechanized Infantry, Modern Armor, and all Artillery from entering Jungle and Mountains.

    The reason for this change was so that other units become useful in the late-game under certain conditions. Paratroopers were the best late-game defenders in jungle and mountains, for example, and Marines were the best attackers in such terrain. The change also sometimes encouraged more naval invasions to bypass impassable mountains and jungles, or increased air power to compensate for the loss of attack and defense strength of units that could reach the enemy. Realism was also a factor in making the change.

    Unfortunately, the AI did not handle the change well, and it was removed from the mod in PTW. It was easier for the human to create kill zones between mountains and jungles. Also, AI often separated wheeled from non-wheeled units to reach the enemy, which resulted in lack of concentration of its force. In effect, jungles and mountains could divide a continent into sub-continents, and we all know how poor the AI was in dealing with intercontinental invasions.

    The C3C version of the mod deserves some discussion on this topic. Do the deeper military tactics involved with the existence of wheeled units justify potentially hurting the AI? After all, the AI is terrible at military tactics anyway, relying instead on high number of units, so perhaps an extra handicap in military tactics will not make that much difference in its performance.

    Perhaps we should we take the idea one step farther, giving all mounted units the wheeled ability, removing roads from mountains, and adding forests to the list of impassable terrain to wheeled units! (OK, don’t shoot; I was just trying to spark some discussion!).

    Comments?

  • #2
    giving all mounted units the wheeled ability,
    So horsemen and knights would be unable to ride through the mountains? Or jungles or forests?
    That just seems a bit too heavyhanded to me and unrealistic. I think the high worker-turn cost of roading these terrains is a high enough cost, especially considering C3C's resource scarcity making swordsmen not a "sure thing".

    I think the biggest impact would be ancient/early middle ages, before mountains/jungles have been roaded or cleared and any civ stuck without iron would appear to be at a distinct advantage, but that's a specific case, not general reasoning.

    Most importantly I just can't make the logical connection of horsemen or elephants being unable to navigate mountains, forest, and jungle.
    "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

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    • #3
      Wheeled mounted units makes for some interesting military strategy (and this mod is about deeper strategy), but I agree it's too big of a change, and I was just kidding when I mentioned it in the first post.

      This thread is really about wheeled mechanized and artillery units.

      Comment


      • #4
        Ah, ok. I took it a bit too seriously it seems.

        By the time tanks roll (haha) around, is there enough jungles or unroaded mountains to be a consistently important as well as consistently exploitable feature? (I'm asking, not being snarky.)
        "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ducki
          By the time tanks roll (haha) around, is there enough jungles or unroaded mountains to be a consistently important as well as consistently exploitable feature? (I'm asking, not being snarky.)
          I think it's quite common to see long strings of mountains. As for jungle, when a single line of jungles can keep AI's motorized forces out, will anyone chop them down?

          The general idea is, if AI can't handle it, we shouldn't make it that way.

          Comment


          • #6
            Disclaimer: Real Life/Historical references ahead, and therefore not necessarily relevant to the AU.

            Mounted & mechanized units don't do well in "close" terrain. Since we cannot give terrian defense bonuses to units based on opposing units, I make them all wheeled and even forests impassable to wheeled.

            It DOES add to the fun factor, and has even given ME problems before everything is roaded by the AI (I will sometimes not road border forests, etc. to serve as barriers). Since C3C arrived, I have not (yet) returned to having mountains impassable to everyone.

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            • #7
              As for jungle, when a single line of jungles can keep AI's motorized forces out, will anyone chop them down?
              If I wanted to work those tiles, you bet I would. I'd rather have productive citizens than a natural barrier whose effects I can reproduce by pulling the AI around by the nose with a worker - both of which would feel too exploity to me to use unless the need was very dire.

              It may be that because I've grown to actually like(*gasp) a fairly tight city spacing, I can't really afford to have tiles dedicated to sealing a border, so my view may be too biased due to my own playstyle and shouldn't be viewed as 100% objective.
              "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

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              • #8
                I always missed that change after it was taken out of the first AU. It would prevent me from dropping tanks on mountains and letting the AI kill its attackers in one or two turns of hopeless charging, and it felt fun.

                It is a great addition to MP (which I have yet to play to the industrial or modern eras), and I am not educated enough on the AI to know if this change - considering that the AI roads everything by the late game anyhow - would hurt it.

                I'd love to see it back, but not at too great a cost.

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                • #9
                  The one change that I think would be clearly beneficial is adding the "wheeled" flag to artillery (and probably also radar artillery). That would virtually never hinder AIs, but removing the ability to include artillery in an invasion force landed on mountains would undercut mountain landings for humans a bit without the same negative impact on AIs that adding "wheeled" to tanks, MechInfs, and MAs would have.

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                  • #10
                    Re: AU mod: Wheeled units and impassable terrain

                    Originally posted by alexman
                    Perhaps we should ... take the idea one step further, giving all mounted units the wheeled ability, removing roads from mountains, and adding forests to the list of impassable terrain to wheeled units!
                    Removing roads from mountains creates too many problems for the AI (the 'sub-continent'-effect). However, you could drastically increase the movement costs of mountains (from 3 to 8 or even 12) so that it would take very long (and wouldn't be cost-effective) to road mountains. A human player faced with a long mountain chain in his territory then would build only one strategically important mountain passage, but leave the rest of the mountains alone. It would have to be tested how the AI handles this.

                    As a side effect, it would also be harder to build mines on mountains. This effect could be diminished by changing mountains from 1 shield / +2 with mines to 2 shields / +1 with mines.

                    EDIT: I support making tank and artillery type units wheeled (like in former AU mod versions), but mounted units should be left alone. (I'm not sure about making forests impassable for wheeled units.)
                    "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nbarclay
                      The one change that I think would be clearly beneficial is adding the "wheeled" flag to artillery (and probably also radar artillery). That would virtually never hinder AIs, but removing the ability to include artillery in an invasion force landed on mountains would undercut mountain landings for humans a bit without the same negative impact on AIs that adding "wheeled" to tanks, MechInfs, and MAs would have.
                      Me likey.
                      The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                      Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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                      • #12
                        Re: AU mod: Wheeled units and impassable terrain

                        Originally posted by alexman
                        removing roads from mountains
                        As in, you can't build roads on mountains any more? This would also affect shield/gold production.
                        So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
                        Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste

                        Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nbarclay
                          The one change that I think would be clearly beneficial is adding the "wheeled" flag to artillery
                          Would this mean artillery can never enter mountains, or only if the mountain is not roaded?
                          So if you meet me have some courtesy, have some sympathy and some taste
                          Use all your well-learned politesse, or I'll lay your soul to waste

                          Re-Organisation of remaining C3C PBEMS

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I understand that alexman isn't serious about this, but if you were to remove roads from mountains, you would (of course) have to remove strat/lux resources from mountains so they wouldn't be even scarcer than now. Not a huge deal, as long as it is done.

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                            • #15
                              I actually set up a PBEM with pretty much the exact restrictions that are being talked about over at MZO. I can post the mod here, if anyone is interested.
                              I make movies. Come check 'em out.

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