AU mod: The Chasqui Scout

[Risa]

3 scouts cost more than 2 CS because of maintainance. Plus, a bit fewer mountains actually help CS rather than hurt them. With mountain chains, normal scout can peform mountain hopping and don't lose very much compared to CS. But with a lone mountain, what if you your scout start a turn right beside it? Move onto it and waste a move point? Or ignore it and lose the greater range of sight?

BTW, all UU should be able to start golden age. That's why they give back Korean Hwach'a lethal bombardment in C3C. And F-15 can start golden age, too, either by air fighting or by bombing.

[pauli]

you forget jungle mountain chains.

[nbarclay]

Despotism has a high enough free unit support level per city that maintenance is rarely an issue after a civ has two or three cities (except maybe if it's trying an early archer rush or some such). So I don't view the extra unit support for a regular scout compared with a Chasqui as a major issue. There may be a few relatively extreme strategies - such as building huge numbers of scouts very early - that would be exceptions, but I'm skeptical as to how sound such strategies would be.

I guess in addition to mountain ranges, Chasquis can always take advantage of hills or mountains in the middle of forests or jungles (or in other situations where a conventinal scout's only good alternative to going on a hill or mountain its first move would be to go on a forest or jungle instead). But I still think that on average, three scouts can cover more ground more quickly than two Chasquis in the early game.

[MrWhereItsAt]

ATAR may be edging towards too powerful if paired with anything else - as they are Expansionistic there will be no negative outcome from any hut, and with ANY attack rating they become not only a faster scout, but a super-fast warrior of sorts. A defense of 1 would allow the chance (albeit quite slim) of a GA, but I don't think it's worth giving MORE of a boost to them because we feel the need to throw in the chance of a GA for the sake of it.

ATAR, normal Scout stats and having the Chasqui available from the word go sounds fine - they get a better scout. That's what most UUs in the game are - taking an existing vanilla unit and adding to it in some way. Especially since what happens at the start of the game affects the sum of the game so much more dramatically than bonuses in later times, this is enough, I think.

[alexman]

Increasing the movement to 3 and allowing the Incas to build normal Scouts (they even start with one, after all), sounds like a good compromise:

• Keeps the stock C3C feel of increased movement on highlands.
• Movement per shield cost will be between 1.5 (CS moves 3, Scout moves 1) and 0.5 (CS moves 1, Scout moves 1) times that of a normal Scout.
• Ensures that the Incas are never worse off than if they didn't have a UU at all.
• Triggers a GA
• The AI will actually build their UU

[nbarclay]

I think reducing the cost is a better way to balance the unit than increasing its power is. Granted, a lot of that has to do with my view that the increased cost of the Jaguar Warrior in C3C is a bad thing for SP, which makes reducing the cost of both the Jaguar Warrior and the Chasqui reasonable. But the same stats at a lower cost also preserve the stock feel better (in my opinion) and avoid giving the Incas as huge an advantage in making contact with civs on the far end of a pangea.

Nathan

[ducki]

Another bonus if they have A/D values - can act as garrisons once exploration is over.

[Risa]

AI already builds a number of CS under stock rules.

[alexman]

Sure they do, but they wouldn't build them if they had zero attack, as in other proposals.

[lockstep]

CS should definitely be able to trigger a GA, like every other UU in C3C. But I like the idea of making normal scouts available for the Inca.

[alexman]

An interesting feature of this unit is that since the AI builds them, and they upgrade to Explorers (at zero cost), the AI will end up with many Explorers.

I wonder what the AI does with its Explorers! They don't normally build any. Will they slip up to 6 squares through enemy land and pillage, like humans do?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Does the AI upgrade UUs? I would think it would be better if it didn't bother upgrading these...

[alexman]

Yes, it upgrades them if it's already triggered its GA. Otherwise, no.

[alexman]

Under consideration:

A) No change.
B) Allow Incas to build regular Scouts.
C) Reduce cost to 15 shields and remove movement bonus on hills/mountains.
D) Reduce cost to 15 shields.
E) Increase movement by 1.
F) 0.0.1 ATAR. Scout upgrades to Chasqui.

If proposals C, D, or E win. We may have another vote later to decide whether the Incas should also build regular Scouts.

Voting on Friday, by ordering of proposals.

[nbarclay]

I support D, lower the cost but keep the unit the same otherwise. Even with the movement bonus, a 15-shield Chasqui will only very rarely be more cost-effective in the early hut race than a 10-shield regular scout. Take away the movement advantage and the Chasqui has only the same early scouting ability for one and a half times the cost (although its ability to survive barbarian attacks will give it an advantage later on). Also, changing the cost but leaving the unit the same otherwise is a smaller change, giving players less to keep track of when moving back and forth between the standard rules and the AU Mod.

By the way, for this round, should B be interpreted as, "Keep the Chasqui as it is but also let the Incas build regular scouts"?