AU mod: Philosophy

[ducki]

I just realized that this makes it even easier for the Human that plans on Feudalism to either get ahead or catch up, since we know the AI will go for it, that's another, now expensive, tech the human can skip in favor of staying in Despot just a little while longer, which isn't always bad if you are short on lux or can't afford the slider for the switch to Republic.
Hmm...


Edit: So as not to just be throwing peanuts from the gallery...
What if, instead of manipulating the tech tree and AI research preferences, etc. in order to deal with the unbalancing effect of the free tech, we just _move_ the free tech - not REmove, just _move_ - to a tech the Human typically prefers to avoid?
I guess I'm saying instead of doing all these crazy contortions to get around the 1 thing that's messing it up, why not alter the thing that's messing it up? Maybe make Mausollos give the free tech - not many players seem too happy with the Wonder but the AI will definitely try to build it.
Or move the free tech to Currency, or better yet, move it to the Middle ages where there are a lot more techs the player can put off and let the AI go for(Free Artistry, anyone?)
Or move it even further, to Fascism, where the player is so unlikely to go as to make this a real strategic decision - how badly do I want/need that freebie?

Just some thoughts. It's the free tech that's out of whack, so let's mess with that, not the tree, which is not too bad in the ancient era.

[alexman]

a. It does not increase strategic options, because it's still the best move to rush for Philosophy and get a free tech on the way to Republic (Code of Laws).

This might still be the best move if you are planning to switch to the Republic. It might not though, because there is more uncertainty about whether an AI is researching Philosophy, as the time to get it is much greater. If there are other civs on their way to Philosophy before you, you would be better off researching something else. Also, if you are going to switch to Monarchy, it's even less likely going to be the best move because you don't even need Philosophy to advance to the Middle Ages in that case. The botom line is that the situations where you might decide not to research Philosophy are more than they were before.

b. It does not really help the AI, because all it does is slow the human player down. The AI will still not compete for Philosophy. If anything, it will reach the Medieval era faster and start on that tree, increasing
the time it's not in Republic.

I agree that without 1.01b the AI is at a disadvantage. With 1.01b, the extra cost and optional status does not deter the AI from researching Philosophy as often as other techs of that level, so the AI is actually better off than in stock. Even if the full 1.01b doesn't get approved, I strongly suggest using its method to force the AI to chose Philosophy as often as Code of Laws. So much so, that I propose to make a quick fix before the next AU game, so that the AI values Philosophy more! It's very easy to do: just add two banana resources that need Philosophy, and the AI will research it often enough. I will actually make the change and post it here as version 1.02, so that the AU game can be played with it, if you guys agree it's better.

c. It does not preserve the feel of the stock game, for rather obvious reasons.

I feel that it preserves the feel of the stock game as much as possible, given the unbalancing potential of a free technology.

[alexman]

AU Mod 1.02

[Dominae]

What a mess of solutions this free tech thing is causing. The simplest, best solution is simply to remove the free tech. Like I said, no one likes this because we like free techs, but how far are we willing to go just to play with this toy?

Here's another possible solution: Philosophy requires Math. This: 1) makes real-world sense (the two studies were one and the same for a long time), 2) slows down the human player on the way to his/her "prize", and 3) is heck of a lot more like stock than the horror we've currently implemented (and are fixing up before the mod is even released).

I will actually make the change and post it here as version 1.02, so that the AU game can be played with it, if you guys agree it's better.

Ah, that's not the way the mod works (at least, not as we've set it up). Maybe if I thought the current implementation was at least so-so I might go along with this, but I feel the original solution is poor enough that we should revisit that first before applying "patches".




Dominae

[ZargonX]

Sorry for the last minute vote, but I've really had to ponder this one

DBAEC

[alexman]

Please please please use 1.02 for the AU game!

It has no difference in gameplay to 1.00.
The only effect is to make Philosophy more important to the AI.
The change we have voted makes no sense without the AI fix. When I proposed it, I assumed that the modified AI research preferences would be part of the mod, but they are not yet.

[Kuciwalker]

What if, instead of manipulating the tech tree and AI research preferences, etc. in order to deal with the unbalancing effect of the free tech, we just _move_ the free tech - not REmove, just _move_ - to a tech the Human typically prefers to avoid?
I guess I'm saying instead of doing all these crazy contortions to get around the 1 thing that's messing it up, why not alter the thing that's messing it up? Maybe make Mausollos give the free tech - not many players seem too happy with the Wonder but the AI will definitely try to build it.
Or move the free tech to Currency, or better yet, move it to the Middle ages where there are a lot more techs the player can put off and let the AI go for(Free Artistry, anyone?)
Or move it even further, to Fascism, where the player is so unlikely to go as to make this a real strategic decision - how badly do I want/need that freebie?

Just some thoughts. It's the free tech that's out of whack, so let's mess with that, not the tree, which is not too bad in the ancient era.

That would REALLY be a change from stock.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae
Here's another possible solution: Philosophy requires Math. This: 1) makes real-world sense (the two studies were one and the same for a long time), 2) slows down the human player on the way to his/her "prize", and 3) is heck of a lot more like stock than the horror we've currently implemented (and are fixing up before the mod is even released).

I agree 110% on the supporting points. Also not quite as radical as my idea to move it to Fascism's tech, though Fascism puts it at a point where the AI can be somewhat compensated for the two freebies the human will get from ToE.
I think I like your solution better, though.

That would REALLY be a change from stock.

Which one? Mausollos giving the tech is very close to stock Civ _feel_.
Moving from Ancient to Middle Ages, is I think not that different from stock _feel_, just different in specifics that the Philo beeliners(I'm one too) have grown accustomed to.
I think moving it to any given tech or wonder in any given age is not very far from stock Civ3 _feel_. I personally think it's closer than the alterations we're currently implementing, though I still feel Dominae's Math proposal is the best idea yet and certainly hampers the 2 or 3 tech beeline that the player can pull off up to Emperor without much pain.

[nbarclay]

Keep in mind that making Mathematics a prerequisite for Philosophy would lengthen the path to Republic, especially in cases where the human player does not win the race to Philosophy and get the free tech. At least making Philosophy optional and shifting a lot of the cost of Republic to it has the virtue of not changing the overall length of that path.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by ducki
Which one? Mausollos giving the tech is very close to stock Civ _feel_.
Moving from Ancient to Middle Ages, is I think not that different from stock _feel_, just different in specifics that the Philo beeliners(I'm one too) have grown accustomed to.
I think moving it to any given tech or wonder in any given age is not very far from stock Civ3 _feel_. I personally think it's closer than the alterations we're currently implementing, though I still feel Dominae's Math proposal is the best idea yet and certainly hampers the 2 or 3 tech beeline that the player can pull off up to Emperor without much pain.

I meant moving it to another tech. Mausollos is medium-sized, but an entirely different tech (while it may not affect strategy TOO much) feels very different.

[Theseus]

I am now completely confused.

[punkbass2000]

I'm not sure if anyone else has had similar experiences, but I find the changes to Philosophy cause the opposite effect of what, I believe, they're supposed to. I find that in the AU mod, it is much easier to be first compared to stock rules (at least at Emperor level). I suspect that this is a result of in the increased cost, which I think is something alexman has previously outlined as having influence on the AI's research choices and also the fact that it is no longer a required tech. I recognize that this may also be an unintended result of another change to the AI, but will utilize Occum's razor for the moment. In addition, the increased cost does not slow down my progress towards Philosophy, whatsoever. I nearly always research Writing and then Philosophy at a 50 turn pace, and under stock rules I find this to be a bit of a gambit, while with AU it has so far been a sure thing. Before getting too deep into this, I would like to hear if anybody else has noticed anything similar.