AU mod: Philosophy

[ducki]

I'm going to just quit suggesting thingsif I don't know for a fact you can do them. I'm full of ideas that can't be done.

[nbarclay]

The reason Scientific civs' three free techs over the course of the game don't create a serious balance problem is that in order to be Scientific, you have to give up some other trait that also provides major advantages. If you want a real picture of the power of the Scientific trait, imagine a game where one civ was Scientific and the others didn't have any special traits at all.

Personally, I think the idea of providing a free tech for the first civ to research Philosophy was a bad one in terms of game balance, and I'd be happy to see it removed in the AU Mod if the panel so decides. Giving players an incentive to research Philosophy instead of something else was a worthwhile goal, but when the result ends up being that players research something else by researching Philosophy, what's the point? (Interestingly, when I can make my ultra-early Republic trick work, my research path is almost exactly what I tended toward in PtW: CoL, then Philosophy, and then Republic. The only difference is that Republic comes the better part of a millennium quicker after Philosophy.)

Regarding Alexman's proposal, it might possibly affect my research path every couple blue moons or so. I don't see any harm to it, but I don't see much chance of its doing much good either.

Nathan

[alexman]

Perhaps Philosophy does need to be more expensive, as ducki says.

If the cost of Philosophy were close to that of the more expensive techs of the age, and if it were optional as well, it would definitely affect the research path of anyone not intending to use the Republic as their first government.

What if we change the cost of Monarchy and Philosophy to their current average? That would put each of those techs at the same cost as Currency.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
What if we change the cost of Monarchy and Philosophy to their current average? That would put each of those techs at the same cost as Currency.

Making Philosophy more expensive may be a good second tweak, but why subtract tech costs from Monarchy? I'd rather make Republic somewhat cheaper, as it is in the same research path as Philosophy.

[alexman]

If Monarchy is much more expensive than Philosophy, players that want Monarchy as their first government would be tempted to research Philosophy instead of Monarchy, and get Monarchy for free.

On the other hand, players that want the Republic as their first governemnt will research philosohy anyway, no matter how expensive it is.

[sabrewolf]

alexman:
if you're competing for philosophy, how will you manage to get the monarchy required techs before? CB can be traded, mysticism often follows early on. but polytheism is one of the later techs researched by the AI. and if you research it, you'll be losing the race towards philosophy.
do you think this can work?
same question for republic beelining. to get free republic, you'd need to research CoL before philosophy. that's risky too (but not as extreme)


a general question: if philosophy is a optional tech, won't that make the AI research it even later?

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
If Monarchy is much more expensive than Philosophy, players that want Monarchy as their first government would be tempted to research Philosophy instead of Monarchy, and get Monarchy for free.

Yes, but isn't this also - and even more - true now?

[alexman]

Do we try and completely solve the problem, or do we change as little as possible and be satisfied with a slight improvement over stock rules? Classic AU mod dilema.

Originally posted by sabrewolf
do you think this can work?

I guess it depends on how close the tech race is with the AI.

Originally posted by sabrewolf
a general question: if philosophy is a optional tech, won't that make the AI research it even later?

Not after we're done with influencing the AI research choices!

[lockstep]

Originally posted by alexman
Do we try and completely solve the problem, or do we change as little as possible and be satisfied with a slight improvement over stock rules? Classic AU mod dilema.

I'd vote for 'completely solve the problem', but after the discussion in the SoZ thread I'm also sympathetic to a 'one step at a time' approach.

[ducki]

In the "one step at a time" vein, I suggest increasing Philo to cost the same as a last tier tech, but NOT make it optional.

The reason being, if Philo is optional, then you still end up with folks able to get Republic (almost) one tech early.

On the gamble for Monarchy v. Republic, see my ducki does emperor thread - I was able to beeline Philo(trading Alpha and Writing along the way), trade Philo for the best techs available, Math and Poly, IIRC, leaving me to choose between Construction, Currency, and Monarchy(Republic wasn't even an option due to my priorities) as the "good" options - everything else was researchable in under 20 easily. I took Monarchy, held it for a bit, then traded it around to push into Middle Ages, IIRC.

Anyway, point is, Philo is valuable enough that you can squeeze a lot of value out of it by trading it around before choosing your freebie, which has the added benefit(if you didn't go for Republic) of putting the AIs in position to research that expensive beast and lower the cost for you and freeing you to pick up Construction and Currency while they muddle-about in the Government race.

The more I consider it, the more powerful Philo becomes, especially for the Machiavellians out there. You could probably pretty easily manipulate the AIs in doing the hard(read expensive) work for you consistently. All you have to do is max research straight for Philo(after Pottery, naturally).

I've hit the Philo jackpot on all but one of my Emperor starts. The mere fact that I a)try it every time and b)succeed nearly every attempt shows just how much the AI undervalues this one and how underpriced it is.

I'd also consider a "house rule" or at least a vote on one to the effect of "no trading Philo until you receive your free tech" if making it more expensive as well as attractive to the AI doesn't balance things out a bit.

[alexman]

Originally posted by ducki
if Philo is optional, then you still end up with folks able to get Republic (almost) one tech early.

Can you explain your reasoning here? The Republic requires Philosophy, optional or not...

I'd also consider a "house rule" or at least a vote on one to the effect of "no trading Philo until you receive your free tech" if making it more expensive as well as attractive to the AI doesn't balance things out a bit.

Sorry, I don't follow you here either. How can you trade philosophy before you get the free tech?

[sabrewolf]

the best solution to the philosophy and the ToE problem would be a completely random free tech. so if you're lucky, you could get republic or construction, if you're really unlucky, you'll end up with a cheap thing.

it works fine for scientific civs when entering a new age, why not here?

if everyone likes the idea, it could be presented to jesse and maybe incorporated in a later patch. waddya think?

[Stuie]

Originally posted by alexman
Sorry, I don't follow you here either. How can you trade philosophy before you get the free tech?

From the what-to-research-next popup window, select "What's the big picture" (or whatever it says...) and you go to the tech advisor screen; then switch to the diplomacy screen and you can deal with the AI Civs prior to picking the next tech.

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman

Can you explain your reasoning here? The Republic requires Philosophy, optional or not...

If Rep requires Philo, then it's not optional, by definition.
(Edit: Ahh, no, clever, clever alex. Rep is also optional. Duh. Interesting. Boy do I feel daft.)
You must have meant unflagging something in the editor. My mistake - I took optional to be literal, like literacy or monarchy or chivalry.

Sorry, I don't follow you here either. How can you trade philosophy before you get the free tech?

When you get the "Our scientists are so cool, check this out" popup, click "What's the big picture", then F4, trade away Philo for the latest-greatest AI stuff, THEN BEFORE leaving the Advisors, go back to F6 and pick the most expensive/attractive tech available.
Viola!
Maybe dodgy to some, maybe not. Definitely needs to be defined as allowable or not if other changes don't fix the power of Philo.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by ducki

If Rep requires Philo, then it's not optional, by definition.
You must have meant unflagging something in the editor. My mistake - I took optional to be literal, like literacy or monarchy or chivalry.

Republic is an optional tech, so anything leading directly to it can also be optional. Like Printing Press is optional, but leads to Democracy. You don't have to research them to advance to the next Age.