AU mod: AI Naval exploration

[alexman]

The problem:

With communication trading moved to Printing Press, the production of a few early exploring ships to make contacts with neighboring civilizations can pay handsome dividends in terms of technological advancement. The problem is that the AI doesn't fully understand the power of naval exploration, and doesn't build Curraghs until it has reached an advanced point in its military and territorial expansion. Most of the time, this point occurs well after Curraghs have become obsolete.

Another problem with the AI's early naval exploration is that it does not perform any suicide exploration missions, not even seafaring AI civilizations that get a reduced sinking probability. The risk of a few sunken galleys is a small price to pay for the potential reward of a trading monopoly with an entire continent.

Possible Solutions:

Either the AI needs to build more early ships, or early ships need to be weakened, as they help the human but not the AI. The AI cannot be made to perform suicide runs, so the only solution is to make such missions more costly for the human. Specific proposals:

• Increase the cost of Curraghs to 20 shields.
• Increase the movement cost for Galleys and Curraghs in ocean to 2.
• Make Curraghs and Galleys 'wheeled', and remove the ability of wheeled units to enter ocean tiles.
• Add the ability for Curraghs to transport units. This makes the Curraghs more valuable in the eyes of the AI.
• Reduce movement of Curragh and make available only to Seafaring civs.

Please discuss, or provide ideas of your own.

[donZappo]

I like the idea of not allowing curraghs and galleys to be able to travel in ocean squares. Although, this would seem to really gimp the seafaring trait as they would almost be guaranteed to miss out on the early continental contacts and that is a major perk of that trait. Maybe make only curraghs available to seafaring, but make the galleys wheeled? Would this actually make the seafaring too powerful on a given map? We would still have the problem that this would only be a human exploit as well.

[Vlad Antlerkov]

If I had to guess a solution, it'd be giving the Curragh the naval transport flag, but no actual transport ability. I don't know if the AI will notice that it can't transport a thing, but it'll probably get the AI build them, then use them for exploration in frustration.

[donZappo]

I've tried that before and notice that while the AI will build more curraghs, it still won't suicide them. I don't think it's enough to just get the AI to build them unless they go on these suicide runs with them. Heck, that's one of the main things that seafaring is built around.

[ducki]

I made this comment on another thread, but I forget where...
I don't suicide, either.
I do probe the promising parts of the sea/ocean, though, which the AI doesn't seem to do.
Edit: forgot to finish this point - if there was a way to make the AI explore the seas the way I do - no suicides, but probing forays into sea/ocean - that would be optimal, IMO.

I think that getting the AI to actually build them and explore with them is a good starting point on this one.

I do not like the idea of really gimping the Seafaring trait by making that extra movement point mostly useless.

[donZappo]

It seems like the main problem with naval exploration is that the humans are able to do it while the AI is not. Any discussion has to be based upon either allowing the AI to explore like the human, or forcing the human to explore like the AI. After looking things over in the editor and attempting a few things myself I don't believe that you can make the AI suicide their boats like the human does. I'm sure this has been attempted before, but I just had to find out for myself. Therefore, I have a couple different opinions on this subject to level the playing field.

If you accept from the start that the human is always going to use suicide curraghs/galleys no matter what the coast is in lost ships then I fail to see what the point is to even allowing the random sinking of ships in the ancient era. I'd like to find a way to preserve the feel of slow exploration while still giving the seafaring trait some real advantage during this time. What happens if you make it so that galleys and curraghs can travel in sea and ocean squares but make it so that sea squares take 2 movement and ocean squares take 3? Both the human and AI would now be able to explore the world if this was the case, but at a slower pace. The seafaring trait would still get a bonus moving throughout the ocean as curraghs can move twice through sea, and their galleys can move twice through ocean tiles whereas their non-seafaring counterparts are left moving at 1 move/turn. This is actually a pretty drastic change on the surface, but may result in a more balanced exploration stage while still allowing for a useful civ trait. The problem with this change is if you think that seafaring should have a monopoly on contacts from other continents then this will remove that bonus to this trait.

If you want to remove the intercontinental galleys/curraghs altogether then you're *really* putting a hurt on the seafaring trait and make it more of a "coastal" trait than anything. To make it so that galleys/curraghs are wheeled and can't traverse the seas or oceans you have to find some way of making seafaring still useful. Maybe it would work if curraghs were seafaring only and could transport one unit. This would allow a bonus to early coastal settling or nearby island settling if the opportunity arrises. Or make the curragh a galley replacement that would be able to travel through sea squares, but not ocean squares. There are often times a lot of open sea passages that might make this pretty useful on a good number of maps.

Personally, I think that something has to be done to level this early exploration exploit by the human player. I prefer the last method that I mentioned with the curragh being a galley replacement for sea-faring civs that can travel on the sea, but this might be a bit unbalancing.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I think I would opt for removing the ocean movement ability of Curraghs and Galleys altogether. In RL they never were designed for such purposes and no real civ ever managed to use such ships to found any lasting settlements (I know about Phoenicia in Brazil, the Chinese on the West coast of the modern-day US and the Vikings in Massachusetts, but look what happened to them ). To balance this I would add a 1-troop carrying capability for Curraghs. They should be early transports and coast-hugging explorers. This reflects their RL use through history (and the promotion of trade that they formed a part of comes indirectly from their location of trading partners with harbours along coastlines) and keep the forum of oceanic navigation where it belongs - with the Caravel and later.

Increasing the cost could be added to this as well if it was felt more was needed to balance the troop carrying ability, but I do not think it is necessary. As for this change on it's own, even with a Curragh at 20 shields it is still too useful - I would build it no questions still, as it gives coastal exploration right from Alphabet, whereas otherwise you wouldn't get this until after several expensive techs.

[Stuie]

If the AI isn't going to do suicide runs, then the human shouldn't be able to either. So I would definitely flag Oceans as "no wheeled" and put wheels on the Galley and Curragh.

As for transport, how many units are we talking about?

If it's only one, will the AI ever send out a lone settler on a Curragh? Or will the AI only send out combat units? If the latter, then this becomes way too exploitable for the human (not that the current situation is much better).

If it's two, that seems a bit powerful for a unit available right from the start... but maybe that's what makes the trait attractive.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Stuie
If the AI isn't going to do suicide runs, then the human shouldn't be able to either. So I would definitely flag Oceans as "no wheeled" and put wheels on the Galley and Curragh.

I still dislike this.

I still never suicide, only probing, looking to see if I can end my turn safely. I never go out more than half my moves, so I can return if there's no opening.

Since, even as a seafarer, the Curragh only has, what, 3 moves(?), you can't cross even one square of ocean, since there's at least 1 sea on either side, so that's not a bad change - wheels on the curragh, no-wheels in Ocean.

However, as a seafaring civ, Galleys get, I think, 4 moves, which means I could traverse a single square of ocean with 1 square of sea on each side. Give me the Lighthouse and you can add one more dangerous square in there.

The point is, I think this is a little too crippling, especially if you're not on a continents/pangea map.

What about :
-Ocean = no-wheels
-Wheels on curraghs
-Ocean and Sea = 100% sinkage rate if and only if you end your turn there with a galley or curragh

This kills the silly, long-distance oceanic suicide runs but still allows the small, feasible, 1-ocean-tile crossings - definitely would need testing. Heck, I'm not even sure that 100% sinkage is moddable.


If this isn't doable and we have to kill all oceanic crossings, even just 1 square oceans, I think seafaring civs need a bigger boost - maybe 1 extra shield in coastal towns or a seafaring-only tech that lets them build a galley, or starting with a galley outright, like Exp civs start with a scout.

I don't think seafaring civs should have a "monopoly" on contacts, just a "window of advantage". 1 extra move is useless if all crossings are banned, but as unbalancing as many feel Agriculture is if the AI doesn't take advantage of it.
(As a side note, Seafaring+GLighthouse rocks, and I don't suicide!)

[Risa]

Another thought: Make Curragh cost 1 population, so that it's very or even too expensive to suiciding explore.
Haven't test it yet, but I hope it may help.

[Tassadar500]

I don't think that's an option. I don't think ANYONE would build two Curragh's or even one for that matter. Would you rather build a worker or curragh?

[ducki]

I'd probably build one, depending on the map, and the situation. Especially if I end up all alone on a small continent, or playing 'pelago, or if I've got great growth and it won't slow me down.

Could it be given the "Join City" flag so that when you're done you can reclaim the pop?

That said, I'd rather look at the movement solutions first.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by ducki
-Ocean and Sea = 100% sinkage rate if and only if you end your turn there with a galley or curragh

I'm afraid this isn't possible with the current editor.

Generally, IMO we have to deal with three problems:

1. Possibility of ultra-early (human) suicide missions with curraghs,
2. Possibility of early suicide missions with galleys,
3. The AI doesn't build enough curraghs for coastal expoloration/contact.

No. 1 is the real game killer for me - it simply shouldn't be posssible for curraghs to enter oceans. So I'm voting for wheeled curraghs.

No. 2 is a valid strategy IMO, although it may be unbalancing in combination with the seafaring trait. So either increase the movement costs for galleys on oceans or leave them unchanged, but don't make galleys wheeled.

Regarding No. 3, I'd like to have curraghs with a transport capacity of 1 so that it is possible to settle nearby islands in the ultra-early game. If this change makes the AI more inclined to build curraghs - so much the better!

[Backpack]

It's 'SEAFaring' not 'Oceanfaring'

The Seafaring cultural trait seems to be based upon the many cultures that were water or water transport based from thier pre-history. In these cases, we are not generally talking about Oceangoing vessels - rather rafts, dingy's and small sailing craft. (again ignoring the 2-4 instances of suicide runs in real history which succeeded)

I vote, make Curraughs wheeled, with no wheeled in ocean tiles. - This allows coast and sea tiles to be used. (sea tiles remain dangerous)

I also vote that galleys not be made wheeled, but if possible should expend 2 MP per ocean tile (Alexmans suggestions implied this was doable on a per unit basis - I'm at work and can't confirm for myself). - This allows a Seafaring with Lighthouse galley to move 3 + 1 + 1 = 5 MP, and safely cross a single tile of ocean beginning and ending on a coast tile.
Coast to Sea = 1
Sea to Ocean = 2
Ocean to Sea = 1
Sea to Coast = 1
Total = 5

I also vote to add transport capability to the Curraugh of 1 unit. I have seen reports on these boards that this change does indeed cause the AI to build and use them.


Thanks for Listening

Kevin P.

[donZappo]

But will allowing curraghs to carry one unit just make the AI more likely to build them, or will it actually use them to settle like the human would? I like the idea of restricting ocean so that curraghs can't use it at all, but then curraghs would need to be able to be used to settle nearby islands. I'll check this out as soon as I get home and see if the AI loads up settlers or not. So my proposed changes at this moment are:

Curraghs - seafaring only, 1 unit loading capacity, no ocean travel
Galleys - No ocean travel unless the great lighthouse is built (I'm wondering if this is even possible).

This would make the curragh essentially a early galley, but that would still be useful for seafaring overall. I just don't like any results that allow the human to suicide for contacts when the AI will never do such a thing.

I agree with ducki in regards to the probing as that is what I do myself. And I know that if the AI can make a crossing, that they will in fact make the crossing. I wish you could make the 100% sink rate possible as this would be a good solution to the problem so then the AI and the human would use the units the same way. I don't like the idea of making curraghs cost a population point. This would make them more valuable, but I just don't like the "feel" of such a change.