AUSG101 - Spaceship Team DAR 3

[Makahlua]

I knew as soon as Ansar was hooked up to the road network I could start upgrading my warriors to swords so I started making sure I had barracks available everywhere. Also I made sure I was getting some temples in especially in larger cites, so I would not need more than 1 or 2 MP there (all -new- units were going to be spearmen, so I could upgrade the warriors) Regarding what was said earlier about vassal states, I figured America would be the better to keep for that as Carthage and Japan seem to be lagging behind; so those swords will soon be pointed at Japan (insert evil laughter here). I'm looking at Kyoto as the probable best spot for an FP, unless we need it closer to the original core if we anticipate a palace jump to the other continent?

1200 BC- Fustat founded by gold in NW
1100 - traded Poly to America for Map Making; Damascus, Najaran and Khurasan have galley added to queue
1075 - Monarchy discovered; Currency selected as next tech (because I figure I'll be in Monarchy at least I finish off Japan, so why not let America research other things for me? ) research set to 40 turns until I get all the swords upgraded (9/1/0)
1050 - Barad-Dur builds pyramids
1000 - Aden founded along the river & coast in the SE
875 - Washington builds Oracle
850- Yamama founded in the North along the other river near Edo
730 - I found the perfect crossing SW of Carthage; holy crap it's Germany on their own isle! Traded Alphabet for 46g and their world map (which is just that isle heh)
670 - 1st swords division (8 vet sword) assemled in Yo' mama, er Yamama and headed for Edo; 2nd Swords headed to assemble behind them. I have enough gold to upgrade the remaining vet warriors, so rate is now 6/4/0, with currency in 12 turns
630 - Isengard builds Colossus; 1st swords attack Edo, 2 units lost, 3 hurt - Edo razed and a slave gained (he'll join the jungle clearing group )
610 - 2nd Swords (6 vet swords) assembled at Yamama will move to join the resting 1st Swords at the ruins of Edo
570 - Ha! I -knew- Japan would send a settler/spear pair to rebuild Edo - yay 2 more slaves for me
550 - bah why does this block have to end right as i'm getting warmed up? traded poly + contact/germany to america for construction, code of laws and literature also poly to carthage for 30g and a worker went ahead and traded contact/japan & Carthage to Germany just for brownie points (why let Abe get things from Carthage and Japan for it? )

Summary:
Not too bad, though perhaps I should've built a couple settlers for that area between us and Japan earlier. I did try send a suicide galley north to go west from near Satsuma, but no luck yet - the galley spawning barb camp up there isnt helping either. Also discovered a one-tile island with a game forest and a fish off the east coast near Aden; I've dubbed it Avalon for now. I'll proabably need to swivel aound and trim America some after I get done with Japan but that might not be until block after next. I also might take at least the gap city from Carthage before that

13 cites, one settler in route; one under construction
Economy : 57g, 4 gpt, currency in 5 turns
Militatry: 13 swords in two groups of 6 vet swords each headed for Osaka with replacements to bring them up to 8-10 each being built; 15 spears on MP duty; 13 workers (8 native, 4 Japanese, 1 Carthaginian), 4 galleys exploring the sea borders looking for crossings and 3 warriors on barb/scout patrol

[Tarquinius]

Nice job guys! I haven't found any time to play the block the last few days, nor have I time this evening. So unfortunately I cannot play the save this time
I will vote on your saves though, and I will play next block again, I promise

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
A question of strategy for our team:

Are we going to wipe out Japan (and later America and Carthage) or are we keeping some cities of them as 'Vassal States'?

Subsidiary question: where shall we put our Palace and FP?

I suspect that will depend on the block that is chosen for the round after this one. If anyone kills them and we chose theirs.......
I would rather not keep all the civs around, but when to eliminate?

[Tassadar500]

Discussion and voting begins

[Mountain Sage]

OK, I'm the first one to vote:

vmxa1: I know it's hard to post after Alexman. Could you give us some statistics next time about the end of your 30 turns. This would be helpful.
ZargonX: not bad at all, but not many cities. At least you went for some Wonders...
Makahlua: interesting, but only 13 cities?
Alexman: the best, but two questions? Why not grab the GLibrary? (in my play, it's only 13 turns away) and why not research, or switch to, the Republic?

ZargonX, Makahlua and vmxa1: where is your gold?
Everybody else except ZargonX: no Wonders?

Generally speaking: why go to war vs. Japan now?
First of all, they are inoffensive and bottled up.
Then, let's them build the GLighthouse in peace.
Their lands are far away (=corruption).
America will be the bigger threat (but not right now).
As a Speceship member, I would have build the GLibrary (13 turns away), gone to Republic asap and upgraded then all Warriors to Swordsmen (I have 28). In the meantime, build city improvements like crazy (libraries, granaries, later aqueducts) and finish rexxing N.
After the Republic, fight two short wars (4-5 cities vs. America and 2-3 vs. Japan).
Build city improvements again like crazy.

My vote: Alexman (but...).

[ZargonX]

MS: Just to answer a few of your questions-

-A large chunk of gold went to upgrading warriors. The empire is actually making a nice steady profit, but I had upped the science rate a bit extra over the last few turns to blast through currency so I could get some markets sooner rather than later.
-I'm 19 turns from the GL, if you switch Mecca over.
-Why attack? They were too far behind in science to be usefull, they weren't building any wonders, and it's no fun waiting 'till they have Samurai to start a war

[alexman]

I'll vote later, after I have examined everyone's saves. In the meantime:

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
Alexman: the best, but two questions? Why not grab the GLibrary? (in my play, it's only 13 turns away) and why not research, or switch to, the Republic?

Let's step back and remember our goal. In order to get the fastest possible spaceship launch, we cannot rely on a Monarch-level AI to keep the tech rate going. We are going to have to do most of the research ourselves, and feel really lucky if the AI contributes a few techs here and there. You don't need the Great Library when you are gifting techs to the AI. You can get all their gold and techs any time you want, by trading your research around. Also, we are already in the Middle Ages. Education is almost here.

As for the government choice, with just one luxury hooked up, a sizeable army, and many small towns as opposed to cities, Monarchy is actually better than the Republic. I raced to Monarchy as fast as possible, just to get out of Despotism, but now we can afford to wait until the AI does the research to get the Republic. The turns invested in researching optional technologies are turns lost from the spaceship launch date. That's why I didn't even research Literature, and I'm not planning to research Chivalry. Let the AI do it for us.

Everybody else except ZargonX: no Wonders?

I didn't feel that a slowdown in expansion and military buildup was worth an ancient age Wonder. The Forbidden Palace, on the other hand, much more important than any Ancient Wonder, is half way done.

why go to war vs. Japan now?
First of all, they are inoffensive and bottled up.
Then, let's them build the GLighthouse in peace.
Their lands are far away (=corruption).

Japan is a very easy target. Small in size, with no iron or horses connected. We will not hurt the AI tech pace much by destroying them, but we will get a location far away from our core to move our Palace. Remember, with the FP rank bug, it's best to jump your Palace to the most remote place in your empire! They have already built the Lighthouse, by the way. A Golden Age with two cores set up is very powerful. We need to get two cores going before we get Ansars, and Japan is the best place to quickly set up our Palace core, IMHO.

[Makahlua]

I'm pretty much the same as Zargon, I have Damascus building a wonder, but right before the save I traded for Literacy (among other things) from America so it could be switched too, and built int eh next block. I did say even in my own report that I realized after the fact I'd been kinda slack in the settler dept. Why Japan now? Like Z said, I don't wanna fight Samurai And after Osaka I can easily turn and prune America some too.

Looking at alex's post, 2nd core in Japan was exactly what I was thinking! We can still prune America a bit so they are a useful vassal, and Carthage is also bottled up nicely

[alexman]

Makahlua

You might lose some swordsmen to the Japanese Archer stack next turn. You have many (too many?) spearmen, so you could have easily given your swordsmen a defensive escort.

Found Germany, a scientific civ, a huge asset for our spaceship goal. Make sure you bring them up to date on research when you reach the Middle Ages, so you can get their free tech. Good job bringing America up to date, but you could have gifted some techs to Carthage as well, especially since there are no immediate plans to attack them, so they can help with research.

Oops, civil disorder in your Wonder-building city (Damascus) hurts! A Wonder is usually not the best use for a city with a Granary. In fact, you have fallen a bit behind in your expansion, mainly because you didn't continue to use your Granary cities to produce Workers and Settlers. You built Muscat in a location with no immediate 2-food source. There is lots of unlcaimed land to the north.

Mountain Sage

Good job expanding, but you could use some extra Workers. The Northwest urgently needs irrigation. Instead of building extra Granaries (Basra, Kufah), you could have been using your Granary cities to pump extra Workers.

Given that our goal is a fast launch, researching Republic seems like a waste of time. The AI will eventually do so. You could be better off researching Currency. Why are you not using the AI to speed up the tech race? They are all behind, and likely researching one of the techs you already have.

As I explained in a previous post, the Great Library seems like a waste in this game for our goal. You can't even change that build to a Forbidden Palace, because it's in your capital.

vmxa1

Building a Wonder in your Capital, and a Forbidden Palace nearby, is not a very good idea because you rely on a leader to move your palace. If you don't get a leader, the Palace jump would require the destruction of a Wonder. Leaders don't come easy when you aim for a fast spaceship launch.

You too are researching an optional tech. Better let the AI do that for you, and you concentrate on getting to the next age.

You too built some extra Granaries, but could use some extra Workers. Usually Granary cities are good for Settler/Worker production. Build your Wonders and units in high-production cities without Granaries.

Your galley is close to discovering Germany. Cool!

ZargonX

Good expansion, number of Workers, and good job using the AI for research by bringing them up to date.

The war with Japan has progressed well. It's good that you don't have many units to finish them off right now. Delaying allows you to promote some units to Elite and maybe get a leader. If fact, you better get a leader, given that you can't abandon your capital with all those shields towards a Wonder.

You could have built some galleys for exploration. Suicide galleys are generally a good shield investment, even in the AU mod, even if they sink.

Kyoto will easily beat you to the Lighthouse, but that's OK, you'll get it anyway. :-) Hopefully Damascus will switch to a more useful Middle Ages Wonder.

All:
Did you know that units fortified in jungles have a chance of dying each turn? No need to fortify the unit at the choke point.

My vote: ZargonX

[Dominae]

Can Scouts die from disease when fortified on a Jungle? I'm pretty sure Workers cannot, and I've always assumed it's the same deal for other non-combat units.


Dominae

[alexman]

Do you really fortify your workers, or do you mean that they don't die when improving the tile? I have never seen workers or scouts die either, but then again I don't fortify those units in jungles anyway.

[Dominae]

True, I rarely fortify Workers on Jungle, but the question remains: which types of units die from Jungle disease?


Dominae

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Mountain Sage
vmxa1: I know it's hard to post after Alexman. Could you give us some statistics next time about the end of your 30 turns. This would be helpful.
ZargonX, Makahlua and vmxa1: where is your gold?
Everybody else except ZargonX: no Wonders?

Generally speaking: why go to war vs. Japan now?
First of all, they are inoffensive and bottled up.
Then, let's them build the GLighthouse in peace.
Their lands are far away (=corruption).
America will be the bigger threat (but not right now).
As a Speceship member, I would have build the GLibrary (13 turns away), gone to Republic asap and upgraded then all Warriors to Swordsmen (I have 28). In the meantime, build city improvements like crazy (libraries, granaries, later aqueducts) and finish rexxing N.
After the Republic, fight two short wars (4-5 cities vs. America and 2-3 vs. Japan).
Build city improvements again like crazy.

Sorry I forgot to give a run down or a summary, well actually I did not know I was suppose to do it.

As to gold, I do not like to sit on gold with units that could be upgraded in the ancient age. So I was using it to upgrade units as I could afford it.
I tend to only go for Colossus and maybe GL, but I figured that the GL wouldbe useless in this game or nearly so. I would start some wonders as place holders, for libs or something, but that is all. Actually, I guessed that Rothi has set up a KAI called the black hans or some such and it would probably get most of the ancient wonders.
As I already started a war with Japan, what can I say. I see them as basically of no value to us in this game, unless they get early wonder, but I do not expect that.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by alexman

vmxa1

Building a Wonder in your Capital, and a Forbidden Palace nearby, is not a very good idea because you rely on a leader to move your palace. If you don't get a leader, the Palace jump would require the destruction of a Wonder. Leaders don't come easy when you aim for a fast spaceship launch.

You too are researching an optional tech. Better let the AI do that for you, and you concentrate on getting to the next age.

You too built some extra Granaries, but could use some extra Workers. Usually Granary cities are good for Settler/Worker production. Build your Wonders and units in high-production cities without Granaries.

Your galley is close to discovering Germany. Cool!

You may be correct about the wonder, but I see only one lux, so I figured HG would be a big help.
The FP is a placeholder for the GL. I now agree with you that it is not going to be all that worth while and I may not even get it. Funny thing is I never build HG.

I debated with myself for some time on the value of skipping all option techs. I decide to go for lit and skip the others. Use Lit to get Construction and maybe Currency. That may work or may not.

I think I am ok for worker and will soon be making more. All cities are connected and some of the jungle tiles are cleared. It is a close call.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by alexman
[Did you know that units fortified in jungles have a chance of dying each turn? No need to fortify the unit at the choke point.

I did hear that units could die in jungles and have seen it twice. I do not understand the mechanics of it, but I recall a game where a spear was left forted in my area for over 100 turns and never died. I finally when to war and killed, but it was in the jungle the whole time.
Do they have a chance to flat die or do they get ill and lose a hp and finally die, if not removed? I can't recall.

But that is the reason I founded my city in a spot that could prevent any pasing with out a border violation. No one would need to be forted in the jungle.

I will load all the games and post today.