AU209 DAR6: Everything else

[Dominae]

Use this DAR thread to report on everything that happens past DAR5.

[Mountain Sage]

DAR 6: from ToE to Victory (or Shame)

1730 AD: Flight, Mass production, radio (in 10 turns) and Motorized Transportation: these were the techs our Sages informed us we had to build before a New Age.
The Japs and Otto were at peace (for once!), but the Babs were at war with the Germans and the French, the English with the Otto and Germans. I had a 3-3 tech lead or equivalent techs (electronics vs. Mass Production) with every other civ. And 4’700 gold.
1740 AD: another Dodo for the museum: the English.
1798 AD: the Modern Times (with Fission) and Russia is the first one. Japs at war (again!) with France, Babs with Germany. Going to research Ecology in 12 turns at -130 gold/turn. We can afford it, since our treasury is at 13’500 gold.
1788 AD: The Japs are Dodo. No week of celebration, there is a secret programme running!
1800 AD: researching Synthetic Fibers at -250 gold/turn in 12 turns. Everybody is at peace. We should be worried.
1840 AD: Rocketry in 1 turn. Overall tech parity (but only for this turn!). Some good news: the Germans are at war with the Babs.
1842 AD: the French joined the Germans against the Ottos! Interesting way of committing suicide…
We just discovered that a civ can send military advisers to another one. Do you want proof? Very well: far to the south, near Shimoneski (tha last Japs city the French captured, don’t ask me why) the French would sent a Battleship to bombard an Ottos road, on which are 3 Workers are ready to repair it. Three bombers would then reduce the Battleship to 1 HP and it would limp back to its harbour. Next turn, a new battleship would…. The French did it for at least 15 turns. If this is not proof that the French navy was instructed by German military advisers…
1868 AD: the Apollo Programme is finished. Our spies stole Nuclear Power from the Germans (they were busy elsewhere). It is time for our cities to stop producing useless MA (to replace even more useless MI!) and start working on the Ship components.
1922 AD: end of the game.

MS notes: the easiest part. Just manage your research and the way you exchange/sell the techs.

In general, the first part of this game has been quite frustrating. Playing a non-commercial AND a non-industrious civ is a real pain for me.
Wonders: just to be on the safe side, I just built ToE and Hoover Dam. I didn’t bother to collect the rest from the other civs. I played it safe…

[Dominae]

Well done, Mountain Sage, and congratulations on being the first one to finish this beast!



One small note: you seem to have taken very long to Mine the Mountains around the starting area. With so much Food, I was expecting players to crank out Workers and tackle the Mountains in order to get some Shields. Any thoughts on this?


Dominae

[Theseus]

I give.

Clearing the decks for AUSG101, I suppose.

I am just waaaaay too far behind. I'm about to complete Steam Power, my first industrial tech (missing Republic, Demo, and MT), while the friggin' Babs are working on the UN.

And LOOK at Japan... that is a KAI if I ever saw one.

Next.

[PeaSoup]

Well, I was the first one to post the first 5 DARs for this AU course, but it looks like I'll be the last to post the last DARs since everyone has moved onto AUSG

Anyways, I didn't get a chance to play the game for over 2 weeks.. and I'm gonig to try and finish it in the next day or so.

My game is on diety. I started slow, but I'm moving along pretty well now:

1450AD
Stole Steel from Germans

1455AD
Hoover built, whoop!! my 2nd wonder

1475AD
Traded Electronics to Germany in exchange for Ivory, Rubber 90gpt and 450 gold

Damn Japan has 4 sources of Rubber, and I'm stuck with none.. grrr

1520AD
Germany:
Got Dyes, 134gpt for Radio

England:
Got 43gpt and 263 gold for Radio

1530AD
Researched Combustion

1575AD
England:
Got 228gpt and 1153 gold for Mass Production

Germany:
Got Ivory, Rubber and 800 gold for Mass Production

I'm 3 turns away from being able to build tanks, then I'll be one tech away from the modern ages.

Japan is looking mighty strong and ripe for an invasion, so I plan accordinly:

[PeaSoup]

Japan is 2 techs behind and is lacking Mass Production and Radio, that doesn't give me a lot of time to build up my forces and invade.

my current trade deal with Japan will expire in 8 turns, my plan is to build up enough forces to attack in about 8-15 turns.

What worries me is Japan's large fleet of ironclads. I will enlist the help of Germany and England in a MPP deal to give the Japanese fleet more targets so my coast line doesn't get decimated.

And because Japan's sole source of oil is not conected (I have a unit sitting on it, and will be able to capture the city next to it on the first 2 turns), getting Germany and England to fight Japan will eliminate 2 sources of oil. And since Babs and Japan just finished a long war, I doubt the Babs will trade them oil.

[PeaSoup]

The purpose of the war is to weaken Japan and "liberate" former Ottoman-Carthage cities that Japan has captured.

Dispite Japan's high culture, those cities have not had the chance to grow culturally and should not flip too easily.

However, Japan has the largest army and navy in the world. Currently, they have 144 infantry, 21 cavalry and 35 ironclads. They have roughly 30 cities, and 1 city on the other continent, so that means I'll be facing at most a 91 unit Stack of Doom (TM) consisting of infantry and cavalry.

I'll need my arties to defend my coast line, so I hope to be able to build enough tanks to hold them back..

[Theseus]

PS, what are your thoughts on stealing techs? I've never really done it much...

What are acceptable costs, when do you risk failure, are certain techs better to steal then others, etc.?

[vmxa1]

It cost so much to steal, that you may as well buy, unless it is one they will not sell. The failure rate is high enough, that it is often worth letting them have the money (IMO). I only steal if I must have the tech now and no one will make a deal.

[PeaSoup]

1590AD
Signed MPP with Germany for 180 gold
Signed MPP with England for 25 gold

Japan discovers Mass Production.. ugh!

1595AD
Researched Moterized Transportation, Flight at 100% eta 7 turns

1605AD
Paid Germany 550 gold to continue embargo against Babs, might as well have them hate each other

1620AD
Germany discovers Amphibious War.. umm.. go marines? Japan is still in Monarchy dispite not fighting any more wars. What is the AI thinking?

1630AD
Researched Flight, progressed to next age. Got Rocketry for free, researching Computers at 100% and -230gpt, eta 10 turns

1635AD
Japan aquired/discovered Radio, damn radar towers will slow down my invasion. I've built 35 tanks so far, will have to double that amount before I can declare war.

1655AD
Japan (currently cautious towards me) demanded Moterized Transportation, well.. it's a few turns earlier than I planned (waiting for Computers in 4 turns), but the happiness bonuse and lessened WW is well worth it, so I refused the demand. Into WAR we go!

My well planned MPP pulls Germany and England into the war against Japan.

The AI should value survivability of it's units more than what a city is 'worth'. Instead of sending its first stack of about 30 units towards 4 of my lone cities seperated from the rest of my empire, the AI sent the stack towards the heart of my empire, ending the turn on grasslands and plains. Target pratice for my tanks and great chance to get some elites. Thanks!

Dispite having 55 tanks, my army is still average compared to that of Japan's

Russian forces not shown in screen shot:
29 Medieval Infantry

Japanese forces not shown in screen shot:
35 Irconclad
9 Bomber
10 Guerilla

well, it's time to kick some ass!

[Theseus]

Go get'em, PS!!

[PeaSoup]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It cost so much to steal, that you may as well buy, unless it is one they will not sell. The failure rate is high enough, that it is often worth letting them have the money (IMO). I only steal if I must have the tech now and no one will make a deal.

I have a different look towards stealing techs.

There's no sense in stealing ancient techs since the research costs are pretty low, but stealing middle and industrial age techs can often put you back to parity.

I rarely research the ancient techs myself, instead I use a single scientist and buy widespread techs. Most players will use the extra gold to upgrade units for a rush of some sorts, but the starting terrain in this AU course was so poor for production, I decided to spend my gold somewhere else..

Perhaps stealing suits my playing style better since I hate giving the AI any sort of advantage. Gold to them will go towards research, rushing, trading or alliances and none of those will help me achieve victory. If an AI is backwards and small, I'd want to keep them that way since they'll never be able to contribute much in trades. If an AI is more powerful or on par with me, then more gold will just make them stronger.

Of course stealing techs is not my first choice of strategy, but for this AU course, I was facing an unbeatable enemy in Carthage (ok, so I didn't bother fighting them, but they had well established cities (on grasslands.. grr), and doubled their size by defeating the Ottomans.

So what was I to do? Well, aquire gold related techs and build gold producing improvements only. Even though Russia is scientific, I didn't bother building libraries and universities till I did my own research. So the gold saved from having to maintain scientific buildings plus the small upkeep required to maintain a very small military meant lots of gold saved up. Being a stingy trader also helps get that extra gpt.

I haven't actually done the math, but provided that you succeed on your first attempt at stealing on 'safely', it is often cheaper than if you were to purchase the tech from the AI. I'd say the success rate on safely is around 65%-75%, and I've only seen the AI declare war once when I failed to steal on safely.

Of course, stealing techs is based on luck, but you have to know when to steal and who to steal from. A hostile AI that lives next door? Don't bother. And sometimes when I'm really bold, I would steal a tech 'immediately'. I would rate the success rate on immediately at around 15%-25%, and war declarations depending on who you've stolen from.

Having played Civ3 for so long, I guess it's possible to kinda perdict AI behaviour and outcomes.. I donno, call it a 6th sense if you will..

And of course the first thing I do after stealing a tech is see if I can trade it around for more gpt. Using the amount of gold the AI was asking for before I stole the tech, factor in AI bonus and the trade bonus, I can figure out how much the tech is worth to the AI and try and get as much gold as I can by umm.. (whisper) talking with each and every civ each single turn..

There are some other little things I did in this game to make sure I had cash flowing in to found my thieving ways, such as making sure that I had something else to trade to the AI when the current incoming gpt deal runs out.. well.. checking deals every single turn helped with that

And in this game, the AI fought each other constantly and ignored me for 5000 years which allowed me to play this way. Otherwise my civ would've been crushed in a matter of a few turns. When they noticed me, it was too late since I had already pulled ahead with TOE.

Damnit, look at my culture... shouldn't gold worshipping count towards something?

[vmxa1]

PeaSoup I agree that no strategy works in all cases and we must be willing to adapt. I will steal at times, but not very often. The exact reason you gave. I hate to give them money and I hate to throw money away, if the steal fails. I find middle age techs are the easiest to steal, as you do not have to use spies. After spies, it is much harder to steal and cost a lot more. Since by them I am usually not behind or at least not far, I do not steal. Now like you say in a tough spot, all bets are off. I will be looking for any method, that I can to get back in the game.

[Mountain Sage]

Originally posted by Dominae
Well done, Mountain Sage, and congratulations on being the first one to finish this beast!



One small note: you seem to have taken very long to Mine the Mountains around the starting area. With so much Food, I was expecting players to crank out Workers and tackle the Mountains in order to get some Shields. Any thoughts on this?


Dominae

This is what I wanted do do in the beginning, but then it was 2 workers busy for 18 turns+6 vs. 1 settler. I wanted to grab as much land as possible since Carthage was expanding in my direction. At the end I build 1 worker/city. This is why I mined the desert first, then the mountains and irrigated the desert over the mines later. Non-industrious workers are a real pain.

[Dominae]

Build more Workers.


Dominae