Going for 1000 AD without huts

[Grigor]

This sounds like fun. I have tried the Ignore Huts rule and it seems workable. Pleasant starting techs will encourage us and shorten the game, both of which are desirable. Perhaps after several games their number and relevance can be made more challenging.

However, I think barbarian settings at raging brings a strong element of chance, both for good and for ill. Despite the sense of euphoria created when a barb leader is captured by a cagily placed trireme, the luck element seems inimical to the spirit of these comparisons. I also think that barbs tend to hurt the AI more than the human. Both of these are seen at the current CFC no huts game. I would suggest eliminating barbs altogether (lowest setting).

If possible, I would suggest making the games in 2.42, which allows for the greatest number of participants.

[solo]

Welcome Grigor!

I personally agree with all that you said, but wanted to accomodate the desires what appears to be the majority of particpants, so the first game will be played without starting techs and will have raging hordes.

All starts will be made with my 2.42 version of civ, to allow the maximum number of participants.

[solo]

In the games without huts, I had estimated it would take about 25 more turns to get things going, and that once the SSC, helpers, and colonies were set up, the remainder of the games would go very much like those where huts had been used. It took longer than this in the first two attempts, because it took much longer to found cities, especially the colonies, which required home grown settlers.

So in my third attempt I made some changes:

1. I used only four instead of five helpers in the early game, to save some time, and to get the SSC growing more quickly. Later on, I only had time to found two colonies, rather than the usual 3 or 4. Fewer helpers and colonies really changed how the game played out.

2. Lack of gold was such a big problem that I did more trading early on, using helper caravans as well as SSC ones in trades to the Romans, the first overseas AI contacted. Good commodities that were in demand were traded, while those that were not in demand were left behind until enough were accumulated to start building SSC wonders.

3. I gave preference to helper locations that maximized shields, in order to produce caravans more quickly.

4. I did not build Darwin’s, but instead used caravans allotted for this in small trades that provided just enough extra beakers to supplement the SSC’s science to earn an advance per turn.

5. Colonies were founded so late, and the SSC had grown so quickly, that I never increased the size of helpers and colonies, but left them at size 3 while building the SSC up to size 35. Thus, there were only two turns where I managed two advances, but 1 turn advances started very early in the game and were sustained for almost every turn afterwards.

6. The colonies and trading partners selected were closer to the SSC and helpers than in previous games. This saved time in making trades, but reduced the delivery payoffs. I was scrounging for gold even when trading was fully up to speed, but I simply did not have the time or resources to set up for more profitable trades farther away from home.

Some of these changes were dictated by the unique situation presented by this start, but most were due to the lack of income, quick techs and free cities ordinarily expected from huts.

I did find out that there are actually some advantages when not tipping huts. All out exploration to locate them is no longer a priority and more trading can take place instead. Many early advances came in many fewer turns because of early trades. Leaving huts for the AI also strengthened them and increased the number of their cities, making them better learners and trading partners. There were no problems with unwanted tribes, unwanted techs or unwanted barbarians results, either.

The start is actually one that I had tried earlier when tipping huts. Bad luck from tips caused me to abandon that game very early, since I was on a small island, which I shared with the Mongols. However, for a game without huts, the start looked pretty good. It came with 8 free techs, including Monarchy, and the purple civ was close by, providing a great opportunity to establish a lucrative road/rail SSC connection. Since I had only played a few turns before abandoning that first game with huts, playing this start again was almost like starting from scratch. Following is a detailed log of the game:

BC years

4000 Washington founded

The site wasn’t ideal, but was adequate. The best time to save turns of research is early in the game. If I had wandered a turn or two first, looking for a better site, my launch would have been delayed the same number of turns.

3900 revolution
3850 government to Monarchy
3750 New York founded

This city was right next to a rivered pheasant, the most that can be asked for in a helper special. Pheasants are great already, with 3 food and 3 shields. The trade from the river was a great bonus.

3700 Mysticism
3600 Was – warrior
3550 NY – warrior
3500 Map Making
3150 Was, NY – settlers
3100 Mathematics
3000 Boston founded

Boston was the SSC, having 3 fish and a buffalo for specials. This may not seem so great, but there were four river tiles and Boston had mostly grassland, a few plains, a few ocean and two forests. No bad tiles meant every one in the city could be used to maximize trade later. Early on, the two forests and the Buffalo gave Boston 8 shields with only three workers! It also had enough potential food to feed an army of Einsteins.

2900 Philadelphia founded, contact Mongols - peace, give tech, share maps

Philadelphia had a buffalo which meant a temple could be built in 8 turns, the time it would take to grow to size two. As with Boston, no warriors were needed first for martial law.

2750 NY – temple
2600 Was – settlers
2500 Bos – temple
2400 Phi – temple
2350 Atlanta founded

The last of the original group of cities. Atlanta had a pheasant, so it could grow very quickly, too.

2300 NY – wine, Construction
2250 Atl – warrior
2000 NY – settlers
1900 Astronomy, Was – temple
1850 Bos – dye
1800 Phi – trireme
1600 Atl – temple, NY – hides
1500 Bos – beads, Was – settlers
1450 Bridge Building, contact Romans - trade for Writing and Literacy, share maps, dye(d) to Rome, 96g
1400 Phi – gems
1300 Atl – settlers, Was – dye, Philosophy, Republic as freebie, wine(d) to Rome, 150g, revolution
1250 NY – hides, government to Republic
1200 Medicine

These early trades were a great boost to early research and provided much needed gold to prepare for SSC growth.

1150 Bos – hides
975 Atl – hides, Phi – settlers
950 NY – silk
925 Bos – hides
875 Bos – Shakespeare’s Theater, Seafaring, gems(d) to Antium, 206g, we love starts in Boston

ST had come in 725, many turns later, in the first game without huts. This was because more time was needed to build that extra helper city.

850 University, Bos – marketplace, Was – beads, beads(d) to Antium, 204g

That single trireme was wearing itself out shuttling commodities to Roman cities!

825 Theory of Gravity
800 Bos – harbor
775 Atl – hides
750 Bos – aqueduct
725 NY – hides
675 Phi – dye, Boston – size 11, we love stopped
600 Bos – salt, size 12, Chemistry
575 Atl – hides, Colossus
550 Was – dye, contact Spanish - trade for The Wheel, peace, share maps
525 NY – coal
475 Bos – salt
450 Banking
375 Atl – hides, Phi –dye, Bos –food
325 NY – silk
300 Bos – food, hides(d) to Cumae, 208g
275 Engineering, Bos – Copernicus, beads(d) to Cumae, 150g
250 Was – salt
225 Bos – library, Sanitation, Chicago founded, first colony

Chicago was on a separate continent very close to the one occupied by the Romans. It had 2 whales to work with. I was quite late getting the first colony established, but had decided to prioritize early trade and earlier SSC growth and development.

200 Bos – we love resumes, dye(d) to Veii, 184g
175 Atl – hides, Bos – sewer system
150 Invention
125 NY – silk
75 Phi – beads
50 Bos – salt, Romans – trade for Economics
25 Democracy, switch made, Was – coal

When the switch was made to AD years Boston was fully roaded and irrigated. It was now size 20, but still had 18 extra food, enough to grow to size 29! It didn’t have any good trade specials, but made up for this by eventually reaching size 35, near the end of the game.

1 Bos – courthouse
20 Atl – hides
40 Chi – temple
60 Navigation, NY – coal
80 contact Germans – peace, give tech, share maps, Bos – food
100 Bos – Isaac Newton’s
120 Phi – cloth
140 Physics, Was – coal, salt to Rome, 232g
160 Chi – beads, Bos – university, size 29, Atomic Theory, San Francisco founded, the second colony

Now Boston had all the scientific wonders and improvements, and at size 29, was able to produce 1 turn advances using only 80% science. Scientists were adding 18 beakers each. In the previous game, where I landed in 1116 AD, my SSC took longer to develop fully, just reaching size 21 on this turn and not finishing Newton’s College until much later, 280 AD. In that game I had dallied too long establishing extra helpers and colonies.

180 Atl – hides, Steam Engine
200 Railroad

No need for Darwin’s when getting an advance per turn.

220 Industrialization, NY – dye
240 Magnetism
260 Corporation
280 Bos – bank, Gunpowder, Was, Phi – transports
300 Refining, beads to Bos – 70g

This beads trade was used to unblock supplies in Boston.

320 Chi – copper, Bos – cloth, Explosives, Atl- transport, dye(d) to Pisae, 40g

This is when the tech costs starting surpassing the SSC’s beaker production, and when caravans not used for Darwin’s were used instead to help sustain 1 turn advances. Not much gold was made from these trades, but they were one key to a pre-1000 landing.

340 Combustion, dye(d) to Chi, 48g
360 Bos – oil, Metallurgy, hides(d) to Rome, 118g, Mongols – trade for Horseback Riding
380 SF – temple, NY – engineers, Conscription, Buffalo founded, cloth to Karokorum, 181g, cloth to Veii, 38g, contact Japanese – peace, give tech, share maps

Buffalo was founded next to Karokorum and served as a station to boost payments from freights being delivered from Boston. New York was the other station, next to Boston, that provided the trade route bonus. I wanted two Karokorum routes to help boost Boston’s beakers, and used up one of the old settlers when founding Buffalo.

400 Bos – stock exchange, Electricity, copper(d) to Bos, 216g

Finally, all economic improvements are in place in Boston, too. I usually try to finish them first, to increase income, but had needed to prioritize science this game to get those 1 turn advances started earlier. The copper to Boston came from a colony. Both colonies were located so as to become copper producers, a commodity in demand in Boston. These trades from the two colonies were another key in being able to afford a space ship in time to launch before 1000 AD.

420 Steel, SF – copper, oil to Karokorum, 181g, St. Louis founded,

St. Louis was used as the eastern most port to shorten sea travel to the Romans and other trading partners. It was also used to start pre-building the Apollo wonder using “wonder bread” from the SSC. All 3 Boston trade routes were with AI cities having more base trade than I could displace with trades from any of my smaller size three cities. Because of this, I had to keep using the “wonder bread” ploy to unblock Boston’s supplies. I also used another technique later in the game, using food caravans delivered from the colonies to Boston in order to unblock their own supplies of copper. Since copper deliveries from the colonies to Boston were not creating new Boston routes, it never tired of receiving copper, which was good. On the down side was the fact that Boston needed to use wonder bread every other turn to unblock its own supplies.

440 Bos – dye, Automobile, Chi – transport, copper(d) to Boston, 216g
460 Atl – engineers, Phi – hides, Bos – superhighways, Mass Production, Was – salt

Automobile permitted superhighways, which boosted Boston’s beaker capacity to 1200. One turn advances were now possible at 90% science. In games where huts were used, I knew that if Automobile were discovered around 1 AD, that a landing before 500 AD was likely, so when I got Automobile before 500 AD in this game, this gave me high hopes of landing before 1000 AD. Learning Space Flight in time was no longer a problem, but making enough to build Apollo and a space ship in time became quite a challenge, since I did not have as many cities, nor were my trading opportunities as lucrative as they were in games using huts. I decided I was not making enough extra cash from trades to afford the harbors and colosseums that would be needed for bigger helpers and colonies, nor could I sustain 1 turn advances while celebrating these cities, so I altered my strategy again by researching Refrigeration and using farmland to grow my SSC up to size 35 to gain the extra beakers I would be needing later on.

480 Electronics, dye(d) to Rome, 780g, Mongols – trade for Warrior Code
500 SF – silk, Chi – spice, Bos – silver, Refrigeration, silver(d) to Rome, 752g
520 StL – temple, Buf – temple, Atl – beads, Phi – engineers, Bos – dye, Nuclear Fission, NY – coal
540 SF – salt, Chi – superhighways, Bos – Mass Transit, Feudalism, dye(d) to Antium, 849g, salt to Chicago, 60g, hides to Chicago, 48g

With so many citizens Boston required mass transit to avoid big time pollution. The two trades to the colony Chicago, were used to cycle back to another re-supply of copper, a commodity in demand in the SSC.

560 StL – oil, Chivalry, Atl – spice, Bos – supermarket, NY – superhighways, Was – engineers, Leadership, oil(d) to Boston, 245g

Boston is ready now for its final growth. Only 10% luxuries and a few entertainers were needed to sustain “we love” during these turns. All established helpers and colonies got superhighways to get the most out of freights they were trading.

580 Buf – oil, SF – superhighways, Chi – copper, Bos – food, we love begins, Nuclear Power, copper(d) to Boston, 520g

The first loaf of “wonder bread” is ready, and when added to Apollo being built in St. Louis, Boston‘s supply of dye was renewed.

600 Atl – superhighways, Bos – dye, Laser, beads(d) to Veii, 246g, silk(d) to Buffalo, 146g, salt to Boston, 260g

620 SF – food, Chi – salt, Bos – food, Tactics, NY – gold, Was – superhighways, dye(d) to Hastings, 864g

640 Buf – diplomat, Atl – dye, Phi – superhighways, Bos – dye, Machine Tools, coal(d) to Veii, 205g, salt to Boston, 256g, food to Boston

The food delivery to Boston from San Francisco served two purposes. It freed up another supply of copper in the colony and it kept Boston’s growth going, since new citizens were now consuming food faster than the engineers could make more farmland.

660 SF – copper, Chi, Bos, NY – food, Mobile Warfare, Was – copper, dye(d) to Osaka, 546g
680 Atl – food, Phi – dye, Bos – dye, Miniaturization, Chi – transport, contact English – peace, give tech, share maps, gold(d) to Kyoto, 206g, copper(d) to Boston, 520g, coal(d) to Karokorum, 145g

I almost completed the game without meeting the remote English, but London was the only spice demander, and a spice caravan finally located this civ, using Hastings (captured by the Romans from the English) as a clue as to where to go.

700 Buf – beads, SF – silk, Chi – copper, Bos – food, Computers, NY – dye, Was – food, dye(d) to Veii, 918g, copper(d) to Boston, 520g, oil(d) to Bos, 514g, food to Boston, dye to Chicago, 66g

All freights with nothing better to do were delivered before the discovery of Flight cut payoffs by 1/3. Enough beakers were generated for the first of two advances on the next turn.

720 Flight, Chi – copper, Atl – food, Phi – beads, Bos – research lab, size 35, we love ends, Radio, NY – gold

Just as Boston reached its prime, it assets were being sold off, starting with the sewer system. Gold had to be scrounged from any and all sources to make a ship in time. Boston was now capable of 1448 beakers, more than needed for the next few advances. This is not too bad for a city with just 3 fish as its trade specials!

740 Buf – cloth, SF – food, Bos – dye, Advanced Flight, Was – food, dye(d) to Rome, 448g, Detroit founded

Detroit brought the city total to 10, and was used as another caravan and space ship parts producer.

760 Chi – airport, Atl, Phi – food, Bos – airport, Communism, NY – food, copper(d) to Boston, 400g, silk(d) to Karokorum, 402g, dye(d) to Cumae, 160g

780 Det – copper, Buf – food, SF – cloth, Bos – silver, Rocketry, Was – food, silver(d) to Rome, 560g, spice(d) to New York, 150g, gold to Chicago, 56g

800 Chi – copper, Atl, Phi – food, Bos – dye, Space Flight, NY – food, copper(d) to Boston, 400g, dye(d) to Pisae, 312g, beads to Chicago, 56g

820 Det – silk, St. Louis – Apollo Program, Buf, SF – food, Chi – copper, Bos – dye, Plastics, Was – food, dye(d) to Pompeii, 436g, copper(d) to Boston, 400g

840 SF, Bos, Was – SS structurals, Atl, Phi, NY – food, Combined Arms
860 Det, StL, Buf, Chi – food, SF, Atl, Phi – SS structurals, Bos – SS component
880 SF, Chi – SS structurals, Bos – SS component, Superconductor, NY, Was – food
900 Det, StL, Buf, Atl – food, SF, Chi, NY, Was – SS structurals
920 Det, StL, Atl – SS structurals, Buf, Phi, Bos – SS modules, Fusion Power, launch 15-1-1-1-1-1, ETA 956 AD

Mission accomplished, a landing before 1000 AD without using huts. In the next post, I will give a few illustrations on the use of “wonder bread” and the use of food deliveries to unblock commodity supplies. A zip file will be attached containing a selection of saves made at different stages of this game, plus two saves having examples of unblocking techniques.

[solo]

The zip attached to this save contains 7 saves made from the 456 AD game played without tipping huts. Two of them, named “wonder” and “food” will be used to illustrate unblocking techniques using food freights. The others are saves at various stages of the game for those interested in taking a look. Included are 4000 BC, 500 BC, 1 AD, 500 AD, and 920 AD, the turn of the launch.

How to use “wonder bread”

If you load up the save named wonder and take a look at Boston’s city display, you’ll see:

Supplies: (dye), (silver), (cloth)
Demands: Uranium, (coal), copper
Karakorum oil: +35t
Karakorum cloth: +35t
Rome silver: +21t

You can see that all three supply commodities are blocked. Now if you go back outside and look at St. Louis, you’ll notice it’s building a wonder, accumulating shields towards the construction of the Apollo Program later. Now take Boston’s food freight and add it to the wonder being built. Then recheck Boston’s display. No changes. Hmm! Wonder bread didn’t work!

The reason it did not work was because dye can not be re-supplied until Boston’s dye freight next to Hastings is delivered. Now reload the wonder save and deliver Boston’s dye freight to Hastings first. Now check Boston’s display. No changes, and the reason this delivery did not create a new trade route to replace one of the existing ones to Karakorum or Rome, is because both of these cities are size 8, and have most of their workers earning trade arrows, giving them more base trade than Hastings. Although delivered, dye did not replace any of the existing routes and went into what you might call a state of “limbo”.

Well, to release dye from this purgatory, the wonder bread ploy must be used, so try it now, by adding Boston’s food freight to the wonder being built in St. Louis. Now check Boston’s display and you’ll see it has changed, with dye now in supply.

Supplies: dye, (silver), (cloth)
Demands: Uranium, (coal), copper
Karakorum oil: +35t
Karakorum cloth: +35t
Rome silver: +21t

After this new supply of dye is built and delivered, Boston can produce another food freight to keep this re-supply of dye going indefinitely, which is what I ended up doing during my game.

Without the wonder bread ploy, my only option would have been to sit and hope something changed on the next cycle turn, but these turns are few and far between. It’s no good having all that trade potential and not being able to put it to constant use.

Now you may ask what about silver and cloth. Why doesn’t wonder bread unblock either of these two? The reason is because they did not go into “limbo” when they were delivered. Cloth went to Karakorum and the silver went to Rome. To unblock either of these two, a trade would have to be made to a city with more base trade than one of these two, causing one of these trade routes to be replaced. I didn’t want to do this, because demand for dye was widespread. I also wanted to retain the lucrative Karakorum rail bonuses.


How to use regular food deliveries

Now load the save named food and take a look inside San Francisco, one of the two colonies. It’s display should be:

Supplies: (silk), (copper), (salt)
Demands: uranium, wool, wine
Boston copper: +9t
Buffalo silk: +1t
Boston salt: +9t

Now if you take San Francisco’s food freight and deliver it to Boston, you’ll notice that the only change to Boston’s display was the increase in food, which is good, because we don’t want to disrupt any of its trade routes. Now check San Francisco, and you’ll see the following changes:

Supplies: silk, (copper), (salt)
Demands: uranium, wool, wine
Boston copper: +9t
Boston Food Supplies: -1f
Boston salt: +9t

Notice that this trade replaced the Buffalo trade route, causing a re-supply of silk. This is a good thing, but in this game I was more interested in getting a re-supply of copper, since copper was in demand in my SSC, and I could get more gold from a copper trade. I would rather replace the Boston copper route if I could with the new food route.

This can be done by temporarily reducing Boston’s base trade until it is lower than Buffalo’s. You can do this by making all Boston city workers into entertainers. Try reloading this save and do this before delivering the food freight from San Francisco to Boston. After the food is delivered the display will change to:

Supplies: (silk), copper, (salt)
Demands: uranium, wool, wine
Boston Food Supplies: -1f
Buffalo silk: +1t
Boston salt: +1t

Since the base trade in Buffalo was higher than Boston’s, the Boston copper route was replaced, instead. Now San Francisco can produce and deliver another copper freight to Boston, which is what I wanted to do in this game.

Now reload the save again and make all of Boston’s workers into entertainers. Instead of delivering the food to Boston, deliver it to another city instead. The result is the same, copper has been re-supplied. The food can be delivered to any city. What matters is which of San Francisco’s trade routes it replaces.

Now reload and fix up Boston’s workers again to reduce its base trade. Use San Francisco’s food freight to help build the wonder in St. Louis, in attempt to use it like wonder bread. When you check back in San Francisco, you’ll see that this did not work, and all supplies are still blocked. The reason is because none of the blocked supplies were in “limbo”. Get the difference?

So when dealing with food and re-supply it’s a good idea to:

1. First, deliver what you want re-supplied before making any attempts to unblock it.

2. Use wonder bread to unblock commodities that went into limbo when delivered.

3. Use food deliveries to unblock visible trade route commodities.

If used correctly, using food to re-supply commodities should always work. The only problem is that you have to take the extra time to build the food, and that you may end up wasting a valuable caravan or freight if its food can not be put to good use.

If you found this info useful, note that in my previous “Going for 500 AD thread” there is a post describing other unblocking techniques in which food isn’t required.

[ottok]

I wonder when i play CIV2 and see that celts cam "America"-my play at American USA when i understand that first time.

When i Look better Europe,i know Why they go America.
I maked allies (with Celts/English-both are also pact)...
I do this because,they want it,why? I not know... but i think that also means that they Trust mee more than More europeans... WHY!?

Whyywhyy! I remmber: in civI i make one chariot (or catapult) attack to Zulus. They split to split. But before this i will only one city and zulus at about 10!?
And this unlucky i see only in Replay

[SCG]

Originally posted by ottok
Whyywhyy! I remmber: in civI i make one chariot (or catapult) attack to Zulus. They split to split. But before this i will only one city and zulus at about 10!?
And this unlucky i see only in Replay

That's one of the few things i miss from Civ I that we don't have in Civ II... It was always fun to watch the rise and fall (and split ) of empires on replay.

[ottok]

but what it says:
Germans... Build Berlin... Nazis Declare war on Russians?