Ancient Words of Wisdom

[Scouse Gits]

One for LaFayette ...

Originally posted by Sun Tzu some considerable time ago
Therefore, no one in the army is treated as well as spies, no one is given rewards as rich as spies, and no matter is more secret than the work of spies.

Please don't move this, Ming, I know it isn't really Strategy, but we can't let a forum die can we

SG[1]

[-Jrabbit]

I'll jump in with a stretegic question. I've been trying to determine if Republic is a viable govt form, and what it takes to make it worthwhile.

I've had great successin just going Monarchy - SOL and choosing either Fundy or Democracy (depending on game conditions at the time). Republic is attractive for its growth potential, but its extreme restrictions in terms of unit costs and happiness caused by (a) too many units and (b) movement outside cities make it a royal pain.

Yet I have seen (perhaps in GL?) writings suggesting a "run to Republic" strategy (ingoring Monarchy ) allowing massive early growth (WLT. SO --

Are Diplomats the key to successful Republic? Their defensive aid and lack of support cost (plus ability to move about) seem to suggest this is so. What other keys might I be missing?

[Scouse Gits]

I believe that the advocates of early Republic (of which I am not one) gain the benefits of representation at the expense of the size of their initial empire - typically limiting themselves to about 7 cities ...

SG[1]

[-Jrabbit]

Hm, I've always had at least 10 by the time I got to Repub. And I'm well known for my incompetence at rapid expansion...

Still curious -- How does one handle the minimal defense/penalty for exploration in Rep? Just hide in your cities until they're done growing?

[Ming]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Still curious -- How does one handle the minimal defense/penalty for exploration in Rep? Just hide in your cities until they're done growing?

Nahhh... just pay carefull attention to the units you have on the board. Since you are allowed one unit per city to be outside before any unhappiness clicks in, you don't need to give up on exploration at all.

If your exploring units are all attached to one or two cities, attach them to other cities BEFORE you go into Republic. Plan ahead. If your intention is to rush to early republic, keep that in mind when you are sending your first explorers out.

Also... diplos make great explorers as well, and don't cause unhappiness or cost support.
A combo of a ship and a diplo from a single city works really well. Once you are far from your empire, the diplo can either get a non unit from a hut, or you can bribe another civs unit to create a non unit that doesn't cause any unhappiness or cost support.

[Scouse Gits]

-Jrabbit, don't forget that Republic only needs one more tech than Monarchy and if you happen to get a couple of them at the start ...
Or - a last minute thought - if you start without techs, is it possible to get to Republic without the required 'junk tech' that is forced upon you going for Monarchy? If this be so, both Monarchy and Republic are only four techs from the start.
And ... a Republican Sleaze is not impossible - just a lot harder (primarily because of the two food cost of settlers) than a conventional Monarchy Sleaze. At least one of the early Succession Games was played as a Sleaze in Republic.

For my money the primary drawback of Republic as a form of government is the excruciating quantity of corruption that seems to be virtually unavoidable ... anyone got an answer to that one ... Ming?

SG[1]

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Hooray (albeit accidentally) an active thread on Strat at last!

[Scouse Gits]

Back on topic...

Sun Tzu defines, "...dead spies are recruited from your enemies' spies..." - what we would now call 'double agents'.

SG[1]

[Ming]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
For my money the primary drawback of Republic as a form of government is the excruciating quantity of corruption that seems to be virtually unavoidable ... anyone got an answer to that one ... Ming?

For your primary/starting cities... a direct road system to the capital works wonders. As you know, only a road system that the computer considers direct works. Just because you have a connecting road doesn't mean anything. To figure out what the computer thinks is the direct method... place your settler in the city you want to build the road to the capital from (or visa versa). On it's turn, use the go to command and select your capital. Once the unit has moved on the DIRECT path. Click on it to free it from the go to command. Build road starting on the next turn. When road is finished, use the go to command again.

This way, you will have a direct road, and it does make a difference in terms of corruption.

You can also build courthouses, but I find that as a waste of resources early in the game

[Scouse Gits]

Am I being naive? If you use the settler trick to build the road from A to B how can you now determine The Road from B to A???

SG[1]


and re corruption - does The Road from A to capital help A or is it The Road from Capital to A that does the trick?

[Ming]

Both routes should be identical. (I've never seen them different, but that doesn't mean I'm right) If somebody wants to test this, go ahead

I almost always build the road from the city to the capital. But I have done it in the reverse a few times, and didn't "notice" any differences...

[-Jrabbit]

OK, so clearly my biggest mistake is that I haven't tried the "straight to Republic" tech path yet.

Ming also points out another consistent flaw of mine. Most times I've tried Republic, it was a mid-game decision, by which time I already have too many units to make it practical.

These points are very instructive and will be tried in my next game.

(Currently finishing an isolationist Democracy-AC game. Right now it's 1782, and have only met 2 other civs -- one distant, one now dead.) Yeah, I know -- a good player would have landed by now. (sigh)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I haven't tried the early Republic option lately. I like Republic, but I don't rush to it. The unhappiness effects seems to negate the WLTPD effect until I have Mikes, and that rules out a really early Republic for me. And without fast growth... Republic is much less attractive.

Also, Republic does let you expand really quick... but it seems to me that this expansion won't be possible without infrastructure, which is usually in place by the time I have Mono/Mikes.

I may try skipping Republic altogether in future. I can certainly see why some take that approach.

[Straybow]

Ming, I'd say most times the AB path and the BA path are not coincident unless a coastline forces the paths to be coincident. For internal trade you are likely to have a fairly extensive network of roads anyway, except for rough terrain. Then you need to find out what route the AI chooses.

Settlers will sometimes go around rough terrain when goto-ing. The only real way to tell is to cheat and create superexplorers (with movement allowance bumped up to make the trip in one turn) to walk the route out.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Straybow
For internal trade you are likely to have a fairly extensive network of roads anyway, except for rough terrain.

Later in the game, you are correct. But early in the game, I'm lucky to have a single road network connecting my early cities. I've noticed that his method does indeed reduce corruption... so until it doesn't, I will keep doing it.

[debeest]

There was a post, a year or two ago, that included a lovely geometric diagram of the shortest routes. (I don't know if anyone ever validated it.) I think it was in the Great Library, although I'm not checking now to see if it's still there. There seemed to be general agreement that shortest-route AB does not equal shortest-route BA, and the diagram allows you to determine the route each way.

I agree exactly with STYOM; no republic until you have Mike's and infrastructrure.