What preparation is needed before switching to Dem. Gov't???

[Bloody Monk]

ADVICE WANTED

Assumptions:
1) Playing for AC...AI has been reduced to one civ
2) Curent gov't: Fundy (via SOL)...745 Gold, Advances 4 Turns, with 20% Lux
3) Approx 90 cities...size 16 Capitol (max developed), 7 cities 6 or 7, 16 cities size 5.
4) Lots of Markets, not many Temples
5) Many units still afield...Magnetism but not Bach's (researching Theology now)
6) 24 cities are too small to celebrate now and another lot probably won't celebrate long before running out of food.
7) more than half of the tech tree is still to go
8) most cities have only one unit garrisoned within (would this negate going Commie??)

The question is what to do next?? How to proceed?? I have never done a big sprawling ICS before and I don't know what to expect. I want to get the rate for research down to 1 or 2 turns, and growth (by celebrating in Democracy) would be nice too, if possible.

1) At what size does a city need a temple with this many cities?? (Will I need to build 80)
2) Is it worth the shield loss to be democratic with these anemic cities??
3) Would it be better to stay in Fundy to fund the building program or can trade make up the difference??
4) Are there other considerations that I should be aware of??
5) Is this going to be a nightmare of micromanagement??

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Scouse Gits]

One hell of a question - I will give it a go when I have a little more on-line time available - but in a nutshell if you can get the majority of your cities celebrating under fundy you can convert to Demo -- the infrastructure requirements of a successful celebrating fundy state are the same as for a Democratic one - take a llook at the mad, mad succession game over in General

SG[1]

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks SG1

That is a good tip. So would it follow that Markets are to be preferred over Temples?? Along with one trade route and 40% Lux, and roads, most cities will celebrate. Need to find more arrows, so how about harbors (also for the food problem)?? I'll charge the maintenance to my account at Adam Smith's!!

I have Mike's but will soon lose the Gardens with rails. Maybe 40% Lux will not be enough? Is there a general rule as to when temples are needed?? I also wonder if it was a mistake to use all my (non-demanded in the SSC) camels for wonder building?? Your succession games feature more non-demanded deliveries, it seems; do you pass up the 50 shields toward a wonder for the trade route that goes with the 20-something gold delivery bonus?? I am feeling a _Godfather_ moment coming on: "I didn't know until now that it was --trade routes-- all along."

I'll reread mad, mad. I have been following those games and have learned (or have seen demonstrated) many new things. In fact, I used the Mrs. Mongol's Gold .sav as a start for this game (thank you very much!!). I picked it up at the "flowers Incident" because I was persuaded by your very "pointed" discussion about Gardens as the first WOW, and I wanted to see how it would turn out if Gardens had been built. What fun this has been!!!

Sorry for all the questions; but thanks for the ideas....

[Xin Yu]

To keep a city under DEM content, you need trade routes and Markets, Bank, Stock exchange. So produce a lot of freights and have them ready to be delivered to the target cities.

Temples, etc. are still necessary if you want cities to celebrate under DEM. Plus you need supermarket+double irrigate and harbor to get enough food for growth. Courthouse is a must unless you have a lot of cities (if your first citizens in all cities are blackhead guys then you don't need courthouse to celebrate).

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Xin Yu
. Courthouse is a must unless you have a lot of cities (if your first citizens in all cities are blackhead guys then you don't need courthouse to celebrate).

Thanks Xin Yu...could you elaborate this point, please. I am familiar with the courthouse adding a happy face but this multiple blackhead effect is puzzling. Are you saying that if all the heads in the happy screen are black that there is no effect from adding a courthouse??

[Bloody Monk]

Sharpening the focus

I've probably asked so many questions that the big picture is fogged over.

I would like to know if there are things that need doing --before-- I make the change to Dem?? I don't want to open the attitude screen and find a hopeless FUBAR....

I know I will need to reposition the units that are still afield, for example. And rehome some of them to balance out their support. I wish I knew enough to just look at a city and know that, for instance, that one will need X and Y, but not Z. And knowing how big a building program might be required, I could better judge how long to stay in Fundy for the "Urban Renewal Project" to take hold. Maybe it is unknowable??

******
Bloody Monk contemplates the maxim: Planning is best done before beginning.

[Scouse Gits]

to answer this question properly you need to carefully consider your position...

Which happy wonders do you have? I'm guessing Mike's and a soon to be defunct Garden backed by Adam Smith - do you have JSB's? how far away is CfC (a neat replacement for the Garden)? When in Fundy I think of Temples and Colosseums as mints - 80 temples = 160g/turn tithes. Nice, but not essential in Demo since with mike's & Bach's and ~20/30% luxuries you can have cities of upto ~5/6 quite happy in Demo...

What is your long-term goal?
Are you going for a high-score record? (If so you are quite seriously mad )
Are you going for the fastest launch now possible? In which case you should be thinking of manicuring 30 or so cities into 20/40/80 shield/turn production and turning the rest into camel factories ...

More info please

SG[1]

[Thoth]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Thanks Xin Yu...could you elaborate this point, please. I am familiar with the courthouse adding a happy face but this multiple blackhead effect is puzzling. Are you saying that if all the heads in the happy screen are black that there is no effect from adding a courthouse??

Courthouses will still add one happy person, but are unneccessary if you've got blackheads. These unlovely folk only take 2 luxuries to make them happy (regular redheads take 4). Once you get enough cities down you'll see the blackies start to appear. As a demo these folks are great if you want to grow by WLTK.

I'd suggest saving your game, holding a revolution and seeing what happens. From what you've posted, I'd guess that you're ok to switch to a Demo. I'll normally switch as soon as I develop it. (assuming I've got Mike's) With the HG still in effect, you should have an easy time growing until RR.

[geofelt]

Go do it now. With hanging gardens, and luxuries high enough(60%?) you can celebrate and build up existing cities to their current capabilities. Keep it up until the growth ebbs. At the end of the cycle, SOL will let you handle happiness with fundy for certain. A more likely government is communism. With commie, you will get few wasted shields, and decent science. Do this before hanging gardens is obsolete. After HG obsolescence, you will need to take the time to build courthouses to celebrate. Cure for cancer will do this also, but it comes late.
Don't be afraid of an unhappiness disaster. If you should find yourself with a mass of riots which you can't fix, SOL will let you change to a different government on the same turn.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks everyone for your comments. This is a wonderful community!! I've been playing and reading these boards for many years and still discover (here) new ideas and features of the game regularly. The fun never stops!!

Previously, I played as a Perfectionist, enjoying building fully loaded cities and making a powerful Civ. I've been to AC dozens of times so I understand how to play as a Dem. But this is a new experience--large map rather than medium and ICS rather than Perfectionist.

That's why I asked for advice about --Preparation -before- going to Democracy--.

Most of the questions to me have already been answered, especially in the first post. (not being snippy, just saying, and I really do appreciate everyone's input) I've got ~90 cities that are tiny and have no improvements. I have just finished off all the AI except the Babs, with whom I intend a lot of trading. I am now making 745gold in Fundy and it will be a few turns before all the victorious invasion force (on several continents) can be brought back to cities. There is no point to being Dem if nobody can celebrate due to troops afield, right?? Also, taxes will yield very little under Dem, relatively; so now is the time for building. I aim for AC as soon as possible with the best score I can get without delaying Launch.

Sooo, in this window, is there some preparation (ie, build 85 temples) I should focus on???

Xin Yu and Thoth:
Thanks, I never knew that about courthouses.

geofelt:
"Don't be afraid of an unhappiness disaster. If you should find yourself with a mass of riots which you can't fix, SOL will let you change to a different government on the same turn."
Thanks, I did not know that. I thought I had to reload back to the end of the last turn and then choose differently if I made a bad choice. I hear your point about the urgency to not miss the window while I still enjoy HG. Thanks!!

SG1:
"in Demo since with mike's & Bach's and ~20/30% luxuries you can have cities of up to ~5/6 quite happy in Demo..."
This is what I need to know. Thanks!!! So, temples will be needed in all cities at size 5 for continued celebration (without boosting luxuries, which would lower research), and build Bach's soonest.

"Which happy wonders do you have? I'm guessing Mike's and a soon to be defunct Garden backed by Adam Smith - do you have JSB's?"
As stated earlier, I am researching Theology now and have everything before. Rails coming, but I hope I can choose something else next so as not to wreck all those "pwetty flowers".

On the excellent point about manicuring cities for shield production, do you have at hand the base level shield number (before factories, etc) to get to 80 shields/turn??? And concerning your view of record attempts--I may be crazy but not yet "seriously mad." No records wanted, here, thankyouverymuch.

Thanks, again all...

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by geofelt
After HG obsolescence, you will need to take the time to build courthouses to celebrate. Cure for cancer will do this also, but it comes late.

CfC doesn't come that late...and is much more effective than courthouses. After the Gardens are busted by Railroad, Darwin's should be ready to come in next turn with 8 carefully planned caravans. Industrialisation is almost certain to be one of the advances gained by this wonder and on a good day Corporation as well. Genetic Engineering requires Corporation with Medicine so the wait need not be more than a few turns.

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SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits


CfC doesn't come that late...and is much more effective than courthouses. After the Gardens are busted by Railroad, Darwin's should be ready to come in next turn with 8 carefully planned caravans. Industrialisation is almost certain to be one of the advances gained by this wonder and on a good day Corporation as well. Genetic Engineering requires Corporation with Medicine so the wait need not be more than a few turns.

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SG(2)

Sound advice. I also try to remember to dial science back to zero and add those %'s to taxes so as not to "waste" the beakers on the free advance.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk I also try to remember to dial science back to zero and add those %'s to taxes so as not to "waste" the beakers on the free advance.

Plus remembering to build Darwin in a fairly new city, so enjoying all the science collected in the top end of the city queue

Used properly Darwin is very important as it allows a quick exit from the Railroad Trade Gap. The aim is to reach Corporation quickly and restore trading bonuses. Usually, its best to have Economics (one prerequisite of Corporation) before going for Railroad.

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SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

SG2-

Would it be better to leave the science settings alone and complete Darwin in a new city?? Although you'd lose the science on the first advance, wouldn't this put you closer to the next (hopefully, CfC) advance??

[geofelt]

If your cities are small, ie less than size 8, you don't need anything. Less than 12, marketplaces will do the job. Past 12, you probably need both markets and temples to celebrate.
It's probably not worth the effort to micromanage darwin's. At most, put science to minimal because darwin's will complete the research regardless of how much you have accumulated.
With ICS, it's a pain to micromanage to get a big score.