The ultimate weapon

[Straybow]

SG[1], you read my mind. I had typed in a response just like that but the forum said it was too busy. I went away to run a few errands.

[JCP]

I agree vet spies are of a good use in Civ2.
But are they actualy "the ultimate weapon" ?
See the Rah post, where several defense tactics are listed, mainly based on control of approaching.
I see two other ways for disturbing spy attacks :
- when bribing has begun in a game, I always stack one or two (vet?) spies in front cities, to conter spy attacks : the defense is not absolute, but the number of vet spy to spend for bribing a city is far more than two when the city has spies in its walls !
- what about cities with SDI ? Ai doesn't allow sabotage of SDI then nuking is difficult. I know that introducing nuke by a spy remain possible, but is SDI of no effect against that operation or there is odds and we have to spend several spies with nuke to succed ?
I play SP too, but I lack of experience with nuking, as in the most times, victory happens before Manhattan's.

[debeest]

JCP, in the manual's discussion of spy abilities, one ability is counterespionage, which specifically refers to protecting against tech theft. There's no indication that a spy in a city provides any other kind of protection. I don't think anyone has produced any evidence for any other protection. Cities with spies in them are some of my favorite cities to bribe....

I don't think SDI provides any protection at all against the bomb in the diplomatic pouch. And from a real-world perspective, why would it? And while Lafayette does love his vet spies, I think the ultimate weapon he's referring to is specifically that nuclear spy.

[La Fayette]

JCP
Debeest has read your post before me and given the answer; thank you debeest; here are some more details:
1) Diplomats or spies stacked inside a city help preventing tech theft, but they do nothing else. The more spies you stack inside a city, the happier I am, because the bribing cost remains exactly the same and this provides me with some free spies on top of the deal.
2) SDI defence is completely powerless against spies.
In my attack of the American civ, ALL American cities were protected by SDI defence and I lost exactly 10 spies for 20 cities destroyed .
3) rah, who is a very experienced player, is very afraid of vet spies, AND HE IS PERFECTLY RIGHT.
Playing SP, it's OK; the AI is not really clever using them. Playing MP I would advise you to be afraid of diplomats (because if you don't you won't survive long enough to build your first spy)

[War4ever]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
War - I'm surprised that MP games ever get as far as nukes - or are these scenario starts??

SG[1]

Scouse Gits.....they don't usually get that far ....but every once in awhile they do....and no these are not scenario starts

i nuked Bird.....he hasn't forgotten about it ...in the process i lost my twenty units on a fortressed mountain...so they were all laughing at me....

no one laughed much longer

though rah pulled a nice manouver to take laser and save his hide

all in all probably the greatest mp game i had been in up to that point

[JCP]

Thanks to Debeest and La Fayette for their lights

...one ability is counterespionage, which specifically refers to protecting against tech theft. There's no indication that a spy in a city provides any other kind of protection.

Diplomats or spies stacked inside a city help preventing tech theft, but they do nothing else.

OK, I was thinking that counterespionage was applied to any spy action.
When my spy counters an ennemy spy action, the game does not specify which action was tried !
If it's only effective against tech stealing, the interest is limited.
But the situation of my game where I've face the question let me believe that a vet spy may counter a bribing action (however not each time).

I don't think SDI provides any protection at all against the bomb in the diplomatic pouch.

SDI defence is completely powerless against spies.

I know that introducing nuke by a spy may be acted even with SDI protection. My question was about the odds for success. The La Fayette experience answers : it's no more difficult to nuke a city by spy when it has SDI !
I agree I was confused when I disovered that AI prohibed the sabotage of its SDI protections ! It looks me cheating !
That explains the trend of AI to build SDI rather than SAM.

[War4ever]

supposedly the hardest function of a spy is to plant the nuke....vets will obviously make it a % easier.....the exact % i have no clue....

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by War4ever
....the exact % i have no clue....

Many people seem to be convinced that losses are 1/1 with non vet and 1/2 with vet spies, but I don't think this has been thoroughly tested.
My own short test (in fact I was playing, not testing ), against the American civ in ww79 scenario, gives 20 cities destroyed (all with SDI protection) and 10 spies lost after an attack with 30 vet spies. This would mean losses = 1/3 with vet spies.
Larger sample needed to make sure.

[War4ever]

Originally posted by La Fayette


Larger sample needed to make sure.

hehe... i doubt i would have the patience....but you do

[Traianvs]

If you're on a seperate island, all you have to do is have enough boats so they can't drop spies

otherwise block the route at choke points with several units in a fortress i guess, but of course you don't always have suitable land for that...

I think the best defense is the offense
if they send in spies, then do the same

[Thoddy]

Originally posted by La Fayette

Many people seem to be convinced that losses are 1/1 with non vet and 1/2 with vet spies, but I don't think this has been thoroughly tested.
My own short test (in fact I was playing, not testing ), against the American civ in ww79 scenario, gives 20 cities destroyed (all with SDI protection) and 10 spies lost after an attack with 30 vet spies. This would mean losses = 1/3 with vet spies.
Larger sample needed to make sure.

At the Invasion Planet Earth Succession game, wich was won by our glorious alien nation, our wonderweapons were lots of nuking devices. About 50 human cities were nuked. We need aprox. 2-3 Spies per city. My personal "record" was 6 spys to nuke a city.

[JCP]

Originally posted by Trajanus
otherwise block the route at choke points with several units in a fortress i guess, but of course you don't always have suitable land for that...

I played similar situations, blocking spies on the roads with joined fortress ... and eliminating non-roaded skirtings by airplanes.
It's usefull when we have other active fronts, but when we progress on that front, the fortress line will be in our back !
... and it was against AI, not very imaginative for changing tactics. Against a human civ there would be another piece of cake !

[War4ever]

yes fortifications rarely work against a good human player

[Caesar the Great]

well on a mountain at a chokepoint they're pretty effective... although i'd usually build a city there instead...