Does it pay to be sneaky?

[East Street Trader]

I did a (very short) test.

Green horse versus green phallanx on flatland. Six sneak attacks and six attacks when already at war.

The outcome for the sneak attacks was 3 horse victories, two victors near dead and one into the yellow, 3 phallanx victories, two victors near dead and the third into the red.

The outcome of the honourable attacks was 2 horse victories, one left in the green, the other into the yellow, four phallanx victories, one near dead, two hardly scratched and one into the yellow.

While clearly far from conclusive, the fact that the sneak attack battles were by far the bloodier seems to me to support the notion that there is indeed an attack bonus for a sneak attack.

And, as these were equal battles, the fact that the defender has benefit of the draw ought to produce a decent margin for the defending phallanxes. Not so in the (admitedly tiny number) of sneak attack cases.

Anyway, I will continue to work on the basis that there is a sneak attack bonus. As it happens I love to sneak attack the A1 anyway so this is no hardship.

[Ming]

In the early days, I think somebody did do tests to prove that there is indeed an attack bonus for sneak attacks. For that reason, I use them whenever I can, and it does seem to make a difference. I've seen non vet horses take out settlers on good defensive terrain under sneak attack conditions... and if you do it without a sneak attack, the settler usually survives.

[airdrik]

Just yesterday, I was playing arround and had given myself combined arms as my first tech. I built a paratrooper and had it explore when I ran into a carth horseman. I declined the offer of peace as I was just out to destroy everything, but when I went to attack I hit cancel action instead of declare war. The next turn that horseman (he was on hills, and my para was on grass) sneak attacked and killed my paratrooper! Of cource I re-created him and immediately destroyed him, but that was horseman (2 at) vs. paratrouper (4 def). And I doubt that the horseman was veteran because they wouldn't have had enough time to gain the status, or build barracks.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

EST, please continue testing! I'll add your findings to the Combat thread. If you come up with odds between 3 sets of units (I suggest Horseman vs. phalanx, Fanatic vs. Fanatic, and MechInf vs. MechInf), I can figure out what advantage (the sneak attack bonus) needs to be multiplied to reach the results.

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[Gatekeeper]

EST:

That's good news, because I'm gathering an invasion force to take on the mighty Carthaginian Empire at king level. They control *all* of Africa, Europe and the rest of Eurasia having smashed all the civilizations over there. They have over 100 armored divisions, 85 bomber squadrons ... **sigh** this shall be a war for control of planet Earth!!!

A surprise attack that offers an advantage will definitely pay off in this case. And if not, I'm sure Matriarch Dido will present to you my battered, bloodied remains. I will, of course, haunt you EST.

CYBERAmazon

[East Street Trader]

Marquis

Well, I usually prefer play to testing and only did my short test because I had posted a couple of times as though the sneak attack bonus was an established fact but then realised it was, as far as I then knew anyway, speculative.

But your offer is generous and out of respect for the excellent work you have done on the subject of combat I will keep my lab open and let you know what I find. Do you need anything more than the brief info in my short test? I wonder, for example, whether there is some way of arriving at the number of hit points left to the victor? All I did in the brief test was to record the colour(green/yellow/red) with a comment if the victor was hardly scratched or nearly dead.

If time and patience holds up I'll try breaking a truce as well as breaking a full peace treaty to see if the bonus applies to both or not.

CYBERAmazon

Don't get too carried away with this. I'm pretty well certain that the bonus is enjoyed just by the unit whose attack breaks the peace, not by all the units which subsequently also attack during the turn concerned.

That is not to say, however, that there aren't occasions when you can get multiple opportunities. If you attack and are successful the A1 will often sue for peace. So accept and then, in the same turn, immediately attack again. This is another sneak attack attracting the bonus. In my experience the A1 doesn't learn any lessons from this and will soon be suing for peace yet again. It does so particularly often after losing a city.

What you can also do is to ensure that you get the sneak attack bonus for the battle that needs it most. Usually that will be a first attack against a city. The city puts up its best defender and the benefit of the sneak attack may be to give you an otherwise unlikely win or, possibly more important, will allow a kami kaze unit that is bound to fail nevertheless to inflict far more damage than it otherwise would so that your next attack against that strong unit will win.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 04-23-2001 06:39 AM Marquis ...I will keep my lab open and let you know what I find. Do you need anything more than the brief info in my short test? I wonder, for example, whether there is some way of arriving at the number of hit points left to the victor? All I did in the brief test was to record the colour(green/yellow/red) with a comment if the victor was hardly scratched or nearly dead. If time and patience holds up I'll try breaking a truce as well as breaking a full peace treaty to see if the bonus applies to both or not.

All that would be needed are the results (e.g. Fanatic attacker wins 157 of 250 against Fanatic defender). Because I know what the expected odds are, I can tweak the attack strength in the formula until it approximates the results you find. My suggested pairings are to have an even battle (on grassland/plains/desert, thus) between units of 1, 2, and 3 hit points. With 3 sets we should get an approximation of the sneak attack value. Others could verify with uneven combat afterwards.

You should be able to check the exact number of hit points remaining in cheat mode. If you edit a unit, you can enter (or read) its HP total. Tho that info would not be necessary for my purposes. Thanks!

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[East Street Trader]

Well, just the number of wins sounds nice and simple and, if I'm understanding, you just need the sneak attack figure (if there's no bonus that will be apparent - if there is one you can work out the value comparing against the prediction from your formula). So I'll tackle the three combats you suggest. Doubt I'm up to such an extended test as 250 apiece but maybe 100 might not take too long and, I hope, will give you each stat in a convenient form.

I may do them in tranches because if I give you the horse -v- phallanx one and it comes out "no bonus" I'd probably let myself off the others.

I'll just do a few breaking a cease fire (rather than a full peace treaty). With luck it will be apparent either that they are matching up with the predicted outcome from the formula or matching to the adjusted figure which allows for sneak attacking (if different). If a short test suggests there is some different value then it can be extended (by anyone sufficiently interested).

[SlowThinker]

East Street Trader,
set hit points to 100 (10 in the rules.txt) for testing purposes. It will lower the fortuity.

[Gatekeeper]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 04-23-2001 06:39 AM CYBERAmazon Don't get too carried away with this. I'm pretty well certain that the bonus is enjoyed just by the unit whose attack breaks the peace, not by all the units which subsequently also attack during the turn concerned. That is not to say, however, that there aren't occasions when you can get multiple opportunities. If you attack and are successful the A1 will often sue for peace. So accept and then, in the same turn, immediately attack again. This is another sneak attack attracting the bonus. In my experience the A1 doesn't learn any lessons from this and will soon be suing for peace yet again. It does so particularly often after losing a city.

EST:

I've had the AI get really PO'd at me when we're fighting. One thing I've discovered is that if you sneak attack, the AI will often end up harboring a grudge against you (such an option exists in the menus; it's called "vendetta"). When it has a vendetta against you, oftentimes it *won't* offer a cease-fire or peace treaty after "x" number of cities fall. Rather, it gets to be like a badger and keeps fighting, hissing and spitting and chasing even as it slowly dies.

CYBERAmazon

[EOL]

I guess this is heading off topic now, but I used to have a badger set in our back garden before moving house. They make a mess of the garden but I guess its worth since you hardly ever see them around nowadays. Used to keep the family cats out of the back garden. I'm sure they'd get a sneak bonus. Is that back on topic again?

EOL

[East Street Trader]

I saw that "vendetta" in the cheat menu while setting up the conditions for sneak attack testing. Can you affect that setting otherwise than in cheat mode do you know?

I rather like the notion of having one or two inveterate enemies among the A1 civs. The Sioux and the Americans, the French and the English, Russia and the Americans, Persians and Greeks might all be candidates.

I have not seen a badger die but I did watch them (from hides, at night)once or twice in Epping Forest with a friend from 6th form days who was something of a naturalist. They are an endearing sort of animal and, by repute, very brave and tough. Sadly we used to have a "sport" here called badger baiting (it's been unlawful for a long time) which involved setting dogs onto them. Like much of our wildlife, they are much rarer than they were, here, and have a degree of legal protection. They are stubborn and like to travel along familiar paths. The mere fact that some idiot builds a motorway across that path does not deter them. So, nowadays, when motorways are built, if it cuts across a badger path a tunnel is constructed along the path's route so that the badger can still go its accustomed way without getting squashed.

We live in a truly strange world.

Anyway, hope your mighty confrontation went well. All despatches from the front line would be sure of avid readership.
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited April 25, 2001).]