OCC with size 4 city

[samson]

Hi all.

I tried an OCC game and limited my city's growth to size four.
I used SMASH's Two Whales/Two Gold Comparison game.
I figured the two gold squares would help limit the population growth.
After I reached size 4 working all four specials left me short one food,
so I alternated one gold square with an irrigated river square:
one turn river, two turns gold. Later I built a harbor and used all
four specials. When the food bin was almost full, I built an engineer
and drained the food bin down again. At which point the engineer got killed.

Here's a mini-log of the game, just the highlights.

3750 Kyoto founded.
2850 Library built. Size 3.
2500 Temple built.
2050 REPUBLIC.
1650 Size 4.
925 Copernicus built.
650 University built.
475 1st Trade Route established.
450 2nd Trade Route established.
400 3rd Trade Route established.
125 BC Newton built.
25 BC DEMOCRACY.
100 AD Colossus built.
320 Harbor built.
440 Factory built.
780 Power Plant built.
1100 Superhighways built.
1520 Research Lab built.
1700 Manufacturing Plant built.
1768 Space Flight.
1770 APOLLO
1818 Launch 15-3-3-1-1-1 spaceship.
1833 Arrive AC

Other than what is listed there, I built one engineer and 40 caravan/freights.

I delayed researching Space Flight as long as possible in order to pile up
freights and gold. I researched up to Laser and Robotics before SF.
When I finally got SF, I had 3400+ gold and 40 caravan/freights.
I was able to build my ship in minimum time.

I gave techs away up until Combustion at which point I became stingy.
I wanted the other civs to be way behind me when I got SF.
I had five alliances all of whom were generous with their gold,
but didn't find the Indians until I built APOLLO.

Once I got my Science Wonders and Improvements built, I got 3 turns on my research rate.
This fell off to 4 turns just before Automobile and again after Flight.

No one ever fired a shot at me nor was ever less than Cordial after contact.
No attempt was made to destroy my spaceship.

I had considerable trouble with polution at the end,
my lone NON settler just couldn't keep up with it.
I achieved a score of 142 and my Hall-of-Fame epithet was Tokugawa the Small
which is hard to argue with.

samson



[This message has been edited by samson (edited April 16, 2001).]

[Smash]

hehehe...whats next?
OCC with a size 1 in despo no caravans,no wonders challenge

you know,it wasn't that long ago that OCC was IMPOSSIBLE.

The game killer is Paul's tech path.Its so well thought out it works in almost any situation...so far.

[Eli]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 04-16-2001 01:52 PM hehehe...whats next? OCC with a size 1 in despo no caravans,no wonders challenge

On a mountain without specials.

[Edward]

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few."
-- Shunryu Suzuki


Great job, samson!

[Scouse Gits]

many congratulations - another chapter for the Paulicy

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[airdrik]

Many, MANY congratulations, we are all very impressed (though perhaps if you did it with a size 3 city , then a size 2,...). Though there is not necessarily a limit as to how small you have to be, there is a limit to how few resources you need to sustain yourself (min=1 trade + 2 food + 1 prod).

Of course only a Diety could do something like that .

[My Wife Hates CIV]

How long did it take you to play that game? Do you have a saved game?

[Guest]

Let me join to the admiring party of Samson. This is truly amazing.. unbelievable that landing on AC could be done in 1833 with 4-sized OCC??!! I'd say that we haven't seen the smallest OCC landing yet..

[East Street Trader]

Elegant, samson. My congratulations.

Love that Tokugawa the Small!!!

[Smash]

I notice you built Cope's before Collosus.Interesting.Maybe some of the Paulicy will be adjusted for this challenge.
I also see you went straight to Republic.I wonder how a size 4 Republic compares to a size 4 Monarchy celebrating?

[samson]

Thanks to all for the comments and congrats.

Smash -

The Colossus is an over-rated Wonder and its primacy in the OCC canon is misplaced.
This is true whether the game is size 4, size 8, or size 20+. After all,
the opening gambit is the same for all of these.

The Colossus should be built as the first Wonder or improvement ONLY when
the city site has NO trade specials. In that case the Colossus increases
trade (and science) by 100%. A size 4 city would have 5 arrows and the big C
would double that to 10 arrows.

But an OCC site should always have trade specials and this reduces the value
of Colossus in the early game. For example, in the Two whales/Two gold game
the city site at size 4 has 20 (3+3+6+6+2) trade arrows under Monarchy
and 25 arrows under Republic. Colossus only adds 5 arrows, a 25% increase
for Monarchy and 20% increase under Republic. 200 shields is a lot to pay
for that pultry boost to your science rate.
You can buy a library for 80 shields and get a 50% increase in science,
more than twice the benefit of Colossus for less than half the price.

The first Wonder, in my opinion, should almost always be Copernicus.
For only 300 shields you get a full 100% increase in your science.
(The Civilopedia says "50%", but it's wrong.)
And after Astronomy it's a short hop to Philosophy and then University comes free.
Build a University for another 50% increase and you now have a 4X multiplier on your science.

I don't intend this as heresy to the "Paulicy".
I hadn't played Civ for years when I stumbled onto Paul's site and learned about OCC.
It got me playing again and I'm grateful. But I do think
the standard opening and tech path of the OCC canon is not optimal.
That's one ofthe reasons I wanted to play with smaller cities.


Your point about Republic vs. celebrating Monarchy for a size4 OCC is well taken.
I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I'll replay the opening and see how it compares.


My Wife Hates Civ -

The game took about four hours of playing time, a little shorter than a standard OCC game. And yes, I have many saves from the game.

Marko -

I think it's quite possible to win with a smaller city than 4.
Certainly a size 3. Perhaps a size two.


Thanks again to all.

samson

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by samson on 04-16-2001 11:57 AM No one ever fired a shot at me nor was ever less than Cordial after contact.

Congratulations, Samson, on your notable achievement!

I assume, though, from the comment quoted above, that you were not playing MGE - is that right? I'm very much a beginner at OCC, and I only have MGE, so the AI is really a pain. It's never cordial for more than a single turn.

Do you think it would be possible to win with a size 4 city playing MGE?

[samson]

Ikuul,

You're right, I'm playing with V242.
MGE is brutal when it comes to the AI. Can you ever form alliances?
Since OCC uses little investment in defense, good relations with other civs
are crucial to success. What I noticed in my size8 and size4 OCC games
was that the AI seemed more docile and generous than ever.
My guess is that the smallness of my civ put me well below the threat level.

In my size4 OCC game my only source of income was gifts from allied civs.
If you can't get them in MGE I think you'd be in big trouble.

samson

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by samson on 04-17-2001 02:59 PM The Colossus is an over-rated Wonder and its primacy in the OCC canon is misplaced.

Often enough I have built the Hanging Gardens before Colossus, sometimes even Marco Polo. Building Copernicus first has the disadvantage that the early caravans bring in less beakers (and money). Much depends on how isolated the city is. I'll have a go at this one to test some things out.
Maybe I'll also do the size one OCC.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited April 18, 2001).]

[Mixam]

I think the only way a size 1 OCC would be along the 0 on the map (forget what it is called) I believe it "may" be possible with the city founded on gold using 2 settlers to first mine then settle it. The other special square I think you need is wine. This being why it has to be at 0 as i believe you can get this to occur at 0. I also believe a river would have to run through both for it to be possible. This will give you a stable size one city with 5 shields after mining the wine (which will result in no waste of shields no matter what you build) and 13 trade which would increase after bridge building once you build a road on the wine to 14 under monarchy 15 and 17 under republic. Not bad for a size 1 city Then after railroad the city would produce 7 sheilds and 21 trade under monarchy 23 with collossis. 7 Sheilds and 23 trade under republic 25 with collossis. This is not including the trade routes you get as i don't know how much you would get though it would prob be very small. I believe with this city someone could do a size 1 OCC. I however cannot. Correct me if my numbers are wrong i do this off the top of my head.