The Lone Engineer at Work (started by Gastrifidis, stolen by SlowThinker)

[SlowThinker]

I think that this post need a separate thread:

originally posted by
Gastrifitis
Settler
Waterloo, IA, US
Feb 2001
to Civ2-Strategy: Apolyton's "Great Library" (Page 3)

posted February 08, 2001 13:40

Hi!
I can't believe I've been playing Civ since the original came out, and didn't know about this site. This is a fantasy camp. I've been reading until my eyes blistered, mostly off this topic. Now I have lots of plans for playing the game in ways that never interested me before, or I didn't know about. In the spirit of contributing, I've expanded on something mentioned in one of the threads, and added analysis. Maybe it will be useful in the recommended Civ II FAQ. I hope this is based off of the original rules.txt file; make changes as necessary.

*** The Lone Engineer at Work***

This is a listing of all the times required for a single Engineer to complete a given task. Settlers would take approximately twice as long for the tasks they can compete. In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Engineer orders to the next turn the Engineer can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Engineer to build a road on grassland, the road will be done instantly. But the Engineer cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Engineer's life to complete the task.

TURNS TASK

1* Build a road on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
2* Build a road on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
3* Build a road on a mountain

2* Build a railroad on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a railroad on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
6* Build a railroad on a mountain

* Building roads or railroads on squares with a river always takes one extra turn.

3 Irrigate/farmland grassland/plains/desert
5 Irrigate/farmland tundra/hills

3 Clear a forest (plains)
8 Clear a swamp/jungle (grassland)

5 Reforest grassland
8 Reforest plains/swamp/jungle

3 Mine a desert
5 Mine hills/mountain
8 Mine a glacier

10 Transform grassland/plains/desert/tundra (to hills/grassland/plains/desert)
20 Transform forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier (to grassland/plains/plains/plains/tundra)
30 Transform mountain (to hills)

2 Clear pollution/build fortress/build airbase on any square

Now, what do we learn from this? Well, let's say you have a forest square and you want it to be grassland. The Transform command will get you there--in a mere 20 turns. On the other hand, you could clear the forest, then transform the plains. If you do, you'll save 7 turns. Or let's say you have a fruit (jungle) square and want to make it a wheat (plains) square. Again, the Transform command takes 20 turns. But if you reforest the jungle (silk), then clear the forest, you get the wheat square 9 turns faster.

Obviously, some Transform commands are relatively worthless. But the timing for transformation seems to be based on the movement penalty for a square. Probably not worth changing. However, by going into the rules.txt file, you could change the results of the transform command. For example, you could make forests transform to mountain squares (gold!), or make jungle squares transform to desert (the Sahara is coming!). You can even make squares transform to ocean and back. Such a command would cost an Engineer or a ship every time it was carried out, but might be worth it anyway. If you don't feel like changing the rules.txt file, just remember that the direct route isn't always the best one when it comes to transforming.

[SlowThinker]

Ok:
I will post my tests too:

*** The Lone Settler at Work***

In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Settler orders to the next turn the Settler can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Settler to build a road on grassland, the road will be done in 1 turn. But the Settler cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Settlers's life to complete the task.

Notes:
1. Settler can't interrupt his work immediately. If you click him, then he will be available next turn. You should (re)set the order and then click him every turn if you want to be able to move him anytime if needed (IMHO settler's work won't be lost).

2. If you break the work, the settler "brings" his undergone turns of work to a new working square.

3. Up to three settlers may work on one square simultaneously.

TURNS TASK

2* Build a road on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a road on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
6* Build a road on a mountain

?* Build a railroad on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
?* Build a railroad on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
?* Build a railroad on a mountain

3* Build a fortress on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a fortress on other squares

* I didn't do any test on a river. I don't know if "Building roads or railroads on squares with a river takes one extra turn".

5 Irrigate grassland?/plains?/desert? (i didn't write down what I irrigated exactly)

10 Mine hills
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 14, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

Thank you SlowThinker - this did need a thread of its own.

Our two ha'p'orth - only two Settlers/Engineers can normally act on a single square - however, Xin has (amongst his many wise offerings to this forum) demonstrated that you can, by careful micromanagement) get as many active Engineer type units working full belt upon any one square as you like - given a little more time I could dig out a reference, but I fear at this moment our time is limited - I have a curfew (SG[1]) my lady will tear off my bits if I am too late!
__________________
The SGs in red - Cotes du Rhone LaFayette!

[Theben]

Not sure about everything that was posted, but I believe farmland upgrades only require 2 turns to complete for engineers.

Another thing to note is that settlers actually take 3 turns to complete a road (grassland, etc.), because it must 1st move onto the square where the road will be placed. Sometimes it will even require 4 turns if the settler uses fractional points to attempt to move onto the square. Since engineers have a move of 2 they WILL get onto the square if adjacent or using up to 2/3rds movement. Then they can still complete the task, even with solely 1/3rd move left. Course you knew that already, but I still find it interesting how much of an upgrade engineers truly are over settlers.

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Theben on 02-09-2001 11:27 PM Another thing to note is that settlers actually take 3 turns to complete a road (grassland, etc.), because it must 1st move onto the square where the road will be placed.

Sometimes a settler takes 15 turns because the square is placed very far

I think you cannot mix a real time needed for construction of the road (it is fixed) and logistical expenses (may vary from 0 to anything).

An example of logistical expenses = 0:
A settler moving to his desired destination and working "on the road".

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Theben on 02-09-2001 11:27 PM Not sure about everything that was posted, but I believe farmland upgrades only require 2 turns to complete for engineers.

Farmland is 5 turns for Settlers, and therefore 2½ for Engineers. If you still have your original NON-Settlers plus two Engineers, you can be very efficient by having the Settlers aid first one Engineers unit, then the other.



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 05:44 PM 3 Clear a forest (plains)

This takes 4 turns for Settlers, and therefore 2 for Engineers (not counting the turn it costs to move to the square, if there is no road). Some of the other results don't seem right as well, maybe you can check them?



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ming]

quote: I didn't do any test on a river. I don't know if "Building roads or railroads on squares with a river takes one extra turn".

Yes, it does take longer for a settler to build a road/bridge on a river square...

[Gastrifitis]

THEFT! I shall board my galleons and plunder your cities!

Just kidding. This was a good idea. I forgot to include the tip about Settlers and Engineers working together because I always make sure to get Leo's Shop, it's a number one priority for me. So I never have Settlers and Engineers working together unless I bribe a Settler. But yes, irrigation takes 2 and a half turns for an Engineer. Clearing a swamp takes 7 and a half turns, but who builds a road there first anyway?

[SlowThinker]

I am waiting. Not kidding.


I am still waiting who will steal "my concept" of thread Info: diplomat and spies.
Gastrifitis, don't you want to pick all information concerning this topic (i think Scouse Gits will post some link yet) and to build and update some tabular/synoptic post?

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-10-2001 06:31 AM I think you cannot mix a real time needed for construction of the road (it is fixed) and logistical expenses (may vary from 0 to anything).

Sure you can. What happens EVERY TIME a settler moves from one square to another? It uses all it's movement, assuming no road exists in both the starting & destination squares (or rr's), and it's turn is over. If it's an engineer moving to a grassland/plains/tundra/desert square & starting from an adjacent square, and it may still act. the logistical expenses of a settler moving onto a non-roaded/rr'ed square are 1 to anything, not 0 to anything. That '1' adds up.

[SlowThinker]

Theben,
do you take into consideration following Gastrifidis's assumption?

quote: In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Engineer orders to the next turn the Engineer can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Engineer to build a road on grassland, the road will be done instantly. But the Engineer cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Engineer's life to complete the task.

[Paul]

I'm 99% certain that farmland takes 3 turns for an engineer and there is no difference between rivered and unrivered terrain.

[geofelt]

It has been my thought that barring Xin's micromanagement technique, only two engineers or two settlers can be effectively be used to speed up a task. More does not help. True?
Also, the work seems to accumulate in the unit, not on the land. If a settler is irrigating land, and I interrupt to move him to safety for a few turns to avoid a barbarian attack, then he will complete the task as soon as he is returned. This technique can be used to build a fortress in one turn.

[SlowThinker]

Gastrifitis,

quote: First of all, I really was just kidding about the theft. I was incredibly pleased to see my little contribution get its own thread started by someone else. I'm sure a discussion about diplomats and spies deserves to be treated similarly.

I really don't know who is/was kidding.
I swear I talk seriously now: I was kidding when I declared I wasn't kidding.

About dips/spies:
My weak english is often confusing. I just wanted to say that it would be commendable if you would arrange results (or partial results) of this thread into some tabular form (for example, something like my dip/spy thread).

quote: Second, I ignored arrival time on purpose. ...

I my tests, I counted "net" time of work: I counted the turn I gave order and I didn't count the turn settler was free (blinking).
I suppose you too (?).

geofelt,

quote: Also, the work seems to accumulate in the unit, not on the land.

I agree. I would skip "seems" yet.

Do you have a link to Xin's work?
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 11, 2001).]