What unit is your "offensive call"

[Ming]

Granted, in the late game, Howies are almost unstopable. Their attack value, combined with their two movement makes them the ultimate weapon.

But Vet Stealth Fighters are the most versatile. I always love having a bunch of them available. Having them waiting over key defensive positions within enemy city limits when you take the city to keep partisans from appearing on them, and then using them to take out the partisans that are sitting in the open is just fun! They patrol, defend, attack... what more could you want from a 80 shield weapon

[George Garrett]

A most interesting, and informative thread...I'm very impressed with the remarks of Edward, and others, about the effectiveness of crusaders.
I must try them - in combination with Stealth fighters! - in my next game as warlord.

[Lord of the Realm]

Bombers! With bombers, I can set carriers around the enemy and pound his cities to dust, then send in my Marines and armor. An unbeatable combination.

[Archangel MasterBob]

The way I play depends on what kind of game I'm playing. If I'm going for High score, I mop up other civs ASAP so I can have more time to farm and irrigate. Crusaders with defense of 1 are to me, not as good as knights because If I fortify knights outside a enemy's city, he stands a good Defensive change, whereas crusaders fall apart way too easily. Catapults are too slow and I usually have 40-50 cities by the time Chivalry rolls around(Chivalry comes mighty early for me and I am a massive expansionist). So I crank out hordes of knights. It takes me roughly 5 knights to break a pike behind walls so I assign maybe 25 to a city and break the defense. When Dragoons comes, it becomes much easier. If I happen to get magnesium before leadership, then I mop up the coast with frigates(amazingly effective even under diety). So I have most of the world by the time industralization comes around. Then with cavalry, I just mop up whats left and leave one city, develop my civ and try to get the highest score.

------------------
Go post stuff at
Civworld forums
Go post now!
"The seeds of evil are the the same seeds of greatness so be evil and be great."

[Ming]

quote: Originally posted by Archangel MasterBob on 03-06-2001 10:29 PM If I happen to get magnesium before leadership, then I mop up the coast with frigates...

Magnesium
Hmmmm... and what does that science let you build

[geofelt]

I used to wait for howitzers, but it is hard to win by 2020 on a large world if you don't get started earlier. Instead, I attack earlier with artillery and engineers. The engineers make it eady to build an instant fort just outside a city. I move in sufficient vet artillery and a defender or two, and blast them next turn. A vet artillery can usually defeat a rifleman or alpine unit behind city walls. It takes two artillery per defender if the city is on a river with vets. I prefer not to remove city walls. It takes resources, and you conquer less of a useful city. The two units of firepower(vs cavalry) makes all the difference.
The same technique can be done with settlers and cannon it is not quite as effective.
Earlier, I expand and bribe cities.

[Marko_Polo]

quote: Originally posted by geofelt on 03-06-2001 11:43 PM . The same technique can be done with settlers and cannon it is not quite as effective.

IMO, forts are not necessarily needed for the effective use of cannons. They are relatively cheap and have good fire power. I always build Leo's and prepare for metallurgy by building catapults to be upgraded. I also like Sun Tsu War Academy (STWA?) a lot and like to train my green cannons by attacking some weak units.

In my recent game (large world, a lot of water) I accomplished incredible results using a LOT of vet cannons against fortified musketeers behind walls. AI doesn't seem to build barracks too much so his city defenders are mostly greens.

I transport my cannons with my navy, drop them to a rough terrain next to an enemy city, along with a good defensive unit of course. Next turn I blast away the most of defenders with my cannons. The few remaining weakened defenders (if any) are finished off with my knights/crusaders/dragoons/cavalry or even with my defenders (musketeers/rifles). Next turn I (rush)build barracks to the town, move all my weakened units inside, let them rest there a turn to get them fully recoverd and then let them strike to the next city.


[This message has been edited by Marko_Polo (edited March 07, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

I can understand those who wait for modern weaponry as, for a long time, that used to be my approach too. But when I started to think of playing MP (still haven't got around to that) I thought I should hone up my warmongering skills. So I played a succession of bloodlusts on small maps.

The result is that I support Ming's comments. There are a hundred and one windows of opportunity during which one or other unit, or one or other combination of units, has an edge.

Curiously the advent of the next generation of good defensive units triggers opportunities for aggression. That is because you can much more shelter your attackers to the target with greater ease and security. I used rarely to build musketeers because by the time I got Gunpowder my reasearch would be thundering along and riflemen would soon be available. But now I just love to get Gunpowder because those three hit points allow a musketeer to soak up the punishment. With one or two of these lads, stacked, and making use of terrain, I can shelter my best offensive units (catapults maybe) up to the gates of the city. You will hold off even multiple attacks from enemy catapults.

You can often get to this point before the A1 has walls and your attackers can fancy their chances against phalanx/pikemen/legion defenders. Even if your men fall into the red while attacking, and the city does not fall, the musketeers will shelter the attackers who emerge individually victorious but injured from any counterattack.

Same point with the arrival of riflemen. They will protect your cannons, knights or crusaders - even against opposition cannon, with modest help from terrain.

Oh, and the A1 doesn't, anyway, seem to use its artillery defensively. When it builds a catapult or cannon it dispatches it into open countryside to die an obscure death in some muddy field.

One tip is to move a solitary pikeman/musketeer/rifleman next to the target (possibly stacked with just one other low cost unit as insurance against bribery) and then only move the costly aggressive units up next move after he has got himself succesfully entrenched. This has more than one benefit. If the A1 doesn't attack him or attacks and does little damage, this is a sign of considerable weakness and should encourage you to press the assault. But if he is succesfully attacked by a powerful offensive unit you are entitled to think again. If he is killed off but only after the A1 has expended a ton of lower grade units then it is likely to have drained most of its defensive strength while doing so. And if he survives but falls badly into the red you repeat the cycle, finally moving up the attackers when there is a fit, entrenched defender in place


I used to think the window for the ironclads to be limited by the advent of the musketeer. Not so. A vet ironclad will often, even usually, win against a musketeer. The fleet will emerge taking on water and about to go belly up. Luckily, however, there will be a handy coastal city to effect necessary repairs within before it moves further down the coast. And again, the A1 does not star at combined arms. The chance that you will face any serious naval counterattack exploiting your damaged condition is nil.

By the time the conquest generates partisans you need an undamaged ironclad or two to sail into the captured city and to take out the partisans not on mountains/hills. They won't be in forts because of the silly pattern to which the A1 always builds them.

George G - try moving in from the sea with units other than marines. You'll find any military unit can hop straight off its transport and take a city that has lowered its flag. The special characteristic of marines is not the ability to move into an undefended city but to attack from onboard ship.

One technique I picked up from the much maligned A1. I noted that it regularly offers peace after a succesful attack. Is it sated with victory and intent on peaceful enjoyment of its conquest? Not a bit of it! It is determined to attack again - and soon. What it sneakily wants is the sneak attack bonus!

So when the A1 sues for a cease fire or a peace while your attack is rolling, accept every time. Then promptly attack again within the same turn! If you think the best defender in the city will be a tough cookie to crack (a vet musketeer, say) this technique gives you an excellent chance of taking him out, or injuring him so badly he'll inevitably fall to the next attacking unit.

All in all I find the biggest contraint on my assaults come with the need to garison the captured cities. I never seem to bring enough units just to move in and hold.

And I now understand why all the warmongers go on and on about vet status. It seems to make much more difference, somehow, than the mere numbers would suggest. To demonstrate, try (or rather don't try) keeping your attack rolling straight after, with Leo's, all your vet ironclads turn into greenie destroyers. Suddenly it will be a case of, "Look mum no fleet".

(Instead, if you have STWA take the whole lot off to a barb spawning ground or the shores of a weakling civ replete with antique units. If you don't have STWA, they go over to convoy duty and you have to wait the next window with the advent of cruisers.)

Lasty, a couple of tips. In the very early diplomatic exchanges with neighbours, watch out for the military techs they offer to exchange and those they want to trade for. You can often tell from that how well or poorly their city/cities will be defended. As Ming points out, horsemen are favourites against warriors. Trick is to know it will be a warrior you face.

Second, if you embark on an attack and get a surprise first result there is a sense of annoyance which can lead you to throw in the next two or three units in rapid succession, each of which almost certainly also dies. So, when that irritation bites, stop; remember that this is a thinking man's turn based game not some mindless chicken shoot; give your back a break; get up; make a cup of tea; and when the irritation is well and truly gone; re-evaluate. Try to establish what it is threw your expectation off (have you missed a terrain factor? are you facing vets?). Re-examine your priorities. How important is the mission, how damaging will it be if the attack force is destroyed for no gain. I believe a military man would say "Don't re-inforce defeat". By which I don't mean that it doesn't pay to tolerate casualties. It does. It is surprising outcomes that call for a re-think.

[Scouse Gits]

EST - we might have to withdraw our offer of MP play - this sounds far too erudite! You seem to have correctly evaluated most of the windows of opportunity......

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Marko_Polo]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 03-07-2001 10:48 AM EST - we might have to withdraw our offer of MP play - this sounds far too erudite! You seem to have correctly evaluated most of the windows of opportunity......

Truly so, I'm with SG. Hard to add anything to that!

Btw EST, are you a author or something? I think you write so fluently. I always enjoy reading your posts!

[Scouse Gits]

Nice post EST.

SG [1] ooops ... EST has found out about Ironclads (useless vessels - hope Civ 3 has none of them!!!) - but does he know the Ironclad/Diplo trick? If he does - we're out of here.

-------------

SG(2)

[lord of the mark]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 03-07-2001 09:33 AM Oh, and the A1 doesn't, anyway, seem to use its artillery defensively. When it builds a catapult or cannon it dispatches it into open countryside to die an obscure death in some muddy field. .

Really? Is this true? it never uses cats or cannon from inside city? (i know i should be able to figure this out on my own, but i usually play with sounds off) Thats very interesting to know, since it means that an AI that lacks crusaders or rifles (as most do for a very long time) will only attack my besieging forces with units with base attack of 4 (elephants typically, or knights) or less. This makes the prospects of building a siege force around a city much more feasible than i thought, using musketeers or even pikemen.

I am surprised as I normally put a cat inside an exposed city for use against besiegers - that seems to me usually the best use for cats.

Lord of the mark

[DaveV]

Lots of good stuff here. I'll agree that all you need is an attacker who's a little better than the defenders you'll be facing (or a lot of weak attackers). That said, my landmark techs tend to be gunpowder and leadership. It's worth noting that if you turn off your science, the AI research rate will drop also. So if you're ready to go on a fundamentalist rampage with musketeers and dragoons, you don't need to worry too much about the AIs discovering labor union before you find them.

A cannon is a great offensive unit if you also have railroad and explosives. The engineers lay tracks up to the rival city, the train rolls up, and the cannons fire from their flatcars and blow up the defenders. Metallurgy comes at least two techs before tactics, so why wait for cavalry?

[Edward]

Much agreed, Marko_Polo. East Street Trader's narrative style is always a pleasure to read.

One comment on East Street's essay: If you have musketeers, then catapults are (effectively) obsolete. The musketeer's 2 hitpoints combined with his 3 attack strength make him just as good an attacker as the catapult. He moves as quickly as and defends much better than a catapult. Plus he only costs 75% as much to build! A small management side effect - no more thinking about how many of each to type to build. The attacking power of musketeers is often underrated. (I still prefer the crusader/knight's movement.)

Great points otherwise. I didn't know about the sneak attack bonus. I've just recently started to let go of a good reputation and will have to try to use this to my advantage.

Archangel MasterBob,
Nice to know that with enough troops, not even wall-tumbling diplomats are necessary.

Ming,
Magnesium is the elusive tech that lets you build Uranium caravans.

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by Edward on 03-07-2001 03:54 PM The musketeer's 2 hitpoints combined with his 3 attack strength make him just as good an attacker as the catapult.

Exactly what I used to believe. But I've since become convinced of the validity of the dice roll combat model, which results in a bonus to a stronger unit. This means that a catapult should be able to destroy a musketeer on open ground (8.875:3.125), while a musketeer should lose when attacking another musket of equal vet status (2.875:3.125). I still contend that a non-vet musketeer is just as good on defense as a vet pike against horses, and better against all other units.

Edit: added italicized text in last sentence, corrected odds.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited March 07, 2001).]