Establishing trade / Exploration techniques

[Juggler_Bob]

Here's my problem, er... ok, *one* of my problems...

My skill at Civ II is far beneath that of many of the regular posters around here. You can find me somewhere between 'mere mortal' and 'pond scum' in the Who's Who of Civ II players (does such a thing exist?)

My usual play style is a quasi-ICS start out to anywhere between 5-10 cities (or more, depending on the availability of good city sites). After that, I tend towards a perfectionist strategy, continuing to found new cities at a slower rate at premium sites (3-4 specials ) or sites of strategic importance.

Anyway, to make a long story short... too late

I have been experimenting wth the SSC concept and it does pretty well for me except for one regard. The importance of establishing all three trade routes from the SSC early has been heavily emphasized in postings here on Apolyton, but I seem to be lucky to know where only 1-2 AI civs are located until much later in the game. What methods of early game exploration do you use to allow you to find cities that demand the SSC's production?

Thanks,

Bob

[Thoth]

quote: Originally posted by Juggler_Bob on 02-26-2001 07:57 PM I have been experimenting wth the SSC concept and it does pretty well for me except for one regard. The importance of establishing all three trade routes from the SSC early has been heavily emphasized in postings here on Apolyton, but I seem to be lucky to know where only 1-2 AI civs are located until much later in the game. What methods of early game exploration do you use to allow you to find cities that demand the SSC's production?

I like to build Marco Polo as early as possible, and then trade maps with as many civilisations as possible. This will usually require spoon-feeding the AI a few techs, but I've found it to be well worth while.

If Marco Polo isn't an option, then lots of diplomats and triremes.

[Smash]

Self trading.Much quicker and you get both ends of the route.Later you can send goods to rivals or build up another city of your own to trade with.

I don't worry too much about demands.I'm more interested in the longterm returns of trade routes.

[Scouse Gits]

Marco Polo is very important, and is a bargain at only 4 caravans!

As Smash says - don't be afraid to trade internally as it begins the process of building up the routes. Look out for the cities off shore - Advanced Tribes etc - trade bonuses are enhanced because it arrives from a different continent.

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SG(2)

[East Street Trader]

In my view a certain amount depends on the commodities which the SSC supplies. If they are low value commodities I am in no hurry to build caravans there. I will be building caravans in my other cities and will very often be sending those caravans to my SSC. So it will get the three early routes it needs that way. And there will be many other good uses to which the time otherwise spent producing caravans in the SSC can be put.

The position shifts a little if the SSC supplies valuable commodities like silk or wine. The mere fact that I have not yet discovered a good foreign city where that commodity is in demand does not put me off building it. At worst I will have to delay sending it out for a bit and, while it is better to get quick returns on early investment, this caravan will not be a wasting asset. If it takes a while to get it delivered to the right place its value on delivery may be high. I just love to land gunpowder in one turn by delivering a silk caravan to a distant and sizeable yellow city.

You have to build the high yield caravan at once because once your other cities start sending caravans to the SSC it will start sending commodities back on the return half of the route and that brackets those commodities - preventing you choosing the bracketed goods when building a caravan there. Once the high value caravan is built you don't have to worry about that any more.

Gold is a special case. It is a gamblers choice. It's value is very high but cities only demand gold for a strictly limited period. Don't build gold caravans expecting to be able to deliver to a far off city currently demanding gold. You have to build on the speculative chance that a city will demand gold conveniently soon after you have completed the caravan and that your communications are going to be quick enough to allow you to get it there. So possession of shipbuilding technologies/Lighthouse/Magellans/good roads are all relevant to the gamble. How the yellow civ is doing and how close you are to it is relevant too. If it enjoys a river rich and sheltered location that is good. Especially (I suspect) if it is the Spanish.

My current early research path goes Monarchy techs, Writing (for the safety of a diplo) then Map Making for a trireme and to make it possible to exchange maps. Finding trading partners is not the least of the benefits of rolling back the fog of war as fast as possible. On a large map Seafaring and the explorer is worthy of some priority. (If you aren't getting most of the map revealed on a small map before you could ordinarily expect to get Seafaring and to build an explorer you are not giving exploration a sufficient priority, in my view.) Be ready to give away Map Making. Both civs must have it before exchange of maps is possible.

Another small point is that it will probably be undesirable to support more than one ship from each early city (and that point gains force if you are an exponent of early republic). So, if you want a sizeable merchant marine, (or have an eye to a fleet of deadly ironclads in the early middle game) give a thought to city location. One of the relevant factors is the desirability (from those points of view anyway) of more, rather than less, coastal cities.

My tongue is running away with me (again) so I had better give way to the next poster on this, engrossing, topic.

[Ming]

At first, I would bide my time, find far off civs to trade with, and maximize the bonus by matching up demand to supply.

Not anymore. The minute I get trade, which is now a far higher priority to me, I set up three trade routes internally between all my cities with my best trade city. I could care less if the my trade city demands it or not. It is a bonus when it does work out You can do it quickly, and the bonuses will keep on coming for the entire game. If you use an early republic approach and WLYDs, the extra trade in each city is key to building population.
Later, I will look for opportunities that make sense, but I don't want to wait for a long time to see some return from my investment.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 02-27-2001 11:10 AM At first, I would bide my time, find far off civs to trade with, and maximize the bonus by matching up demand to supply. Not anymore. The minute I get trade, which is now a far higher priority to me, I set up three trade routes internally between all my cities with my best trade city.

If you used to bide your time (we all know you did; how could you have beaten Rah's record otherwise? ), I strongly agree that you are right researching Trade early and building a few caravans ASAP.
But 3 trade routes between ALL your cities and your best trade city, that is a lot!
Why not choose foreign trade when you know of fat AI cities demanding what you can supply? (in other words getting a fat bonus on top of the route, at the cost of perhaps a few more turns on voyage, no more?).

EST
You give numerous interesting details that might help any of us when taking decisions in the field of early trade. I just reread it and agree with anything you wrote (except the Spanish perhaps ).
This includes your last line. That's why I say Bye for now.



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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Scouse Gits]

Yes, you must be careful picking out a fat AI city for trade in the early years. For example, if you note that Babylon demands Hides and Copper, you send your trireme off with those commodities on board. As soon as you land the Hides cargo the demands alter - the Copper changes to Silver! Trade early and often - ignore the demand if you can't satisfy it - then wait a while for the big bonuses!

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SG(2)

[Ming]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-28-2001 11:36 AM Why not choose foreign trade when you know of fat AI cities demanding what you can supply? (in other words getting a fat bonus on top of the route, at the cost of perhaps a few more turns on voyage, no more?).

Early in the game, a caravan is an investment. When you send that investment off to foreign lands trying to get the big fat bonus three things can occur:

1) At some point in the "future" when it arrives, you get a nice trade route.
2) The caravan is killed on the way there
3) When it does FINALLY arrive, the demands of the city have changed.

So early in the game, even though the payoff is far less, you get it quicker. Plus, you can still decide whether you need the caravan for a trade route, or to build a wonder (tough to change your mind when the caravan is half way around the world)
As I said, later in the game is a different story... but I like to establish those three routes for every city asap.

[Sikander]

By way of introduction, I have played a lot more Civ 1 than Civ 2. When I purchased Civ 2 MGE I noticed the new trade rules, but they seemed to be a PIA, so I just kept doing what I have always done which is to trade internally. Since I like to go Republic / Demo this pays pretty well, and I can enhance it even more by building 3 high trade cities on very small islands (Hawaii is great for this on Earth). That way I get the intercontinental boost. I find this quite preferable to caring in the least what the caravan has in it, or who the hell wants it. (Often Nothing and No One respectively).

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 02-28-2001 12:41 PM Early in the game, a caravan is an investment. When you send that investment off to foreign lands trying to get the big fat bonus three things can occur: 1) At some point in the "future" when it arrives, you get a nice trade route. 2) The caravan is killed on the way there 3) When it does FINALLY arrive, the demands of the city have changed.

A caravan is an investment (not only in the early game): I strongly agree.

1) Some point in the "future" means, on the average, 2 to 4 turns later than in case of internal trade = rather slight difference (and the reward is in consequence: the farther you sail, the fatter the bonus).

May I mention a trick I have in use (either with LH or with Caravels), taking advantage of how to measure distances in this game?: if I have any choice, I try to travel along the diagonals of the rhomboids as much as I can (this means choosing a target city across the ocean at a latitude close to the latitude of my origin city, or even at the same longitude, but that is not so frequent).
Travelling 4 turns NE with a caravel gives D=4*3=12.
Travelling 4 turns E gives D= 4*3*1,5=18.

2) Am I lucky?
I avoid trading by land, rough, unroaded terrain, enemy territory.
I trade by sea (and across the ocean ASAP, see above).
Target cities by the seaside.
It seems to me that I don't loose more than 1 in 20 caravans, or so.
(painful when it happens, I confess).

3) Demand changed
Of course I hate it. But:
if the city is fat the bonus might nevertheless be rewarding (didn't you say you just didn't care for goods in demand when playing internal trade?);
it happens more than once in a while that you are able to find a helpful fat city #2 demanding what fat city #1 doesn't care for any longer.

To make it short:
I don't criticize at all establishing 3 trade routes to the capital (or the strong trade city or the SSC) ASAP. I do it quite often when my telescope doesn't show any temptating fat bonus anywhere in the close future.
3 trade routes from ALL cities = also OK. But the more of these delivered far away with fat bonuses (and beloved beakers) the better.



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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental