Capitalizing on Wonders

[Didymus]

I was building a wonder and someone else completed it ahead of me. I switched to Capitalization to see what would happen. It didn't convert to gold, but when I looked at the summary on my builds, I saw that Capitalization had 236 shields. I was able (many turns later) to switch back to building a wonder using those shields, thereby building the Philosophers Stone (Civ 2 ToT Fantasy game equivalent of Darwin's Journey) before the others civs could compete.

Has this been discussed? Also, I am wondering if this trick can be used to switch between Wonder and Non-wonder building without penalty (I didn't think to check).

[Marko_Polo]

Yup, I witnessed the same phenomena.. I was building Adam's, Mongols completed it before me, I changed to MP which I didn't want and hoped to get a better wonder. When MP would have been done next turn I switched to 'Capitalization'. Then came 'Cure of cancer' which I wanted and went back to my city and all the shield where there!

[Scouse Gits]

Silly question: Capitalisation is only available after The Corporation which itself comes some considerable time after Trade. So why build Wonders - caravans are cheaper (by a factor of 2) can be stored up in advance and utilised when needed and give you flexibility to divert for some pressing need?

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Didymus]

SG: I was playing the Stygians in the Midgard Scenario [ToT version], and the Stygians cannot build caravans.

But in general, what has been said about caravans is valid ... in the standard game. But I like the Fantasy game best, and underground races have minerals coming out their ears, so mineral production (pre- forge/factory) of 20-23 is common; obviously, this would result in much waste when producing caravans.

Still, I like geofelt's point about not tipping off the AI. OTOH I usually play Emperor, so AI cheats are not that urgent an issue for me.

[East Street Trader]

geofelt.

The question is, does the general rule which you state apply in the special case when you have preserved shields by switching to capitalisation? Putting that another way, when you come out of capitalisation, will the penalty be applied if the thing you come out of capitalisation to build is of a different genus than that which you were building when you went into capitalisation?

I read of this "saving shields" feature either on these boards or on some other Civ2 site quite a while back but I am not sure that I have found an occasion calling for its use.

No doubt that is because I too tend to store up caravans so that I can get such later wonders as I want quickly once they are available. And if I've managed to do that it would be rare to be pipped to the post by the A1 with lots of potentially wasted shields already in the box.

What I have not seen discussed anywhere is whether this feature could be exploited so as always to avoid the change in genus penalty once capitalisation is available.

It should be easy enough to check whether the penalty is or is not applied. If it isn't, all that would be needed when you want to change from unit to building or vice versa, would be to switch to capitalisation for one turn then to switch back out specifying the unit or building desired.

But I'm not really attracted to doing that myself as I suspect it would represent a programming oversight if the penalty doesn't get applied. So I doubt I'll be checking.

[Thoth]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 02-05-2001 01:30 PM Putting that another way, when you come out of capitalisation, will the penalty be applied if the thing you come out of capitalisation to build is of a different genus than that which you were building when you went into capitalisation?

The penalty is applied. Civ remembers what type of item you were building when you switched to Cap. If you change when you come out, you loose shields.

[Don Quixote]

geofelt is right on...Capitalization is considered a wonder by the game. The effect of switching between the two on production shields:

Unit -> Cap. 50% loss
Improvement -> Cap. 50% loss
Wonder -> Cap. NO LOSS

Likewise,
Cap. -> Unit 50% loss
Cap. -> Improvement 50% loss
Cap. -> Wonder NO LOSS

The interesting thing about this phenomena is that Capitalization turns current shield production into tax gold. Thus you are increasing net income of gold for you civ as a whole. If your city currently has 20 production shields, then 20 gold are received for each turn in Capitalization. If we consider Wonder Production, I believe 1 production shield costs you 4 gold if you choose to buy the Wonder. Thus Capitalization effectively gives you 5 (20/4) future shields per turn if you are storing the shields to build a Wonder.

Mathematical side note, effective shield production per turn, ESPt, of Capitalization is defined by the equation

ESPt = CPt/GSR

where CPt = City Shield Production per turn
GSR = Gold/Shield Transformation Ratio (=2 when buying Improvements, =3 when buying Units, =4 when buying Wonders)

[geofelt]

You can switch production without penalty only between items of the same type. units, improvements, and others. Others include wonders, capitalization, and spaceship parts.
Caravans are a special case in that they can be used to build wonders at full value. You are more flexible if you build caravans in the city where you want to build the wonder, planning to apply them when you have enough. If needs change, like a defense emergency, the caravan can be changed to a unit without penalty. The only small negative is the rounding loss of production from building caravans. If you net 10 shields, for example, then there is no loss on a 50 shield caravan. Production of 17 shields is good with a loss of only 1 in three turns.
Also, I am convinced that the AI knows which wonders you are building, and will start on the same wonder if it can. Caravans keep your intent from the AI. I also try to start on the wonder I need least, attempting to mislead the AI. It works.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by Don Quixote on 02-05-2001 07:22 PM The interesting thing about this phenomena is that Capitalization turns current shield production into tax gold. Thus you are increasing net income of gold for you civ as a whole. If your city currently has 20 production shields, then 20 gold are received for each turn in Capitalization.

This raises a question I've been meaning to ask. Capitalization is listed as requiring a certain number of turns -- like anything else, more turns in cities with lower shield production. So do you have to accumulate a certain number of shields before capitalization kicks in? If so, that would seem to contradict Don Quixote's point. If not, what does that turn number mean?

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Marko_Polo]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by geofelt on 02-05-2001 12:43 PM</font> The only small negative is the rounding loss of production from building caravans. If you net 10 shields, for example, then there is no loss on a 50 shield caravan. Production of 17 shields is good with a loss of only 1 in three turns.

I always try to match the shield requirements so that I wouldn't lose too many extra shields. I just HATE to have a city with 24 shields (and there is no way to get one more) when I want build a caravan.

When building wonders I usually put one my of cities to work on the wonder. It's the city of best production or a city with uneven shield production for a caravan making. The nearby cities are all making caravans to feed my wonder city and I try to micromanage the shields like that:

Shields Turns Waste
5........10.......0
10.......5........0
13.......4........2
17.......3........1
25.......2........0
50.......1........0

The same principle applies to all units/improvements, of course. I also tend to rushbuy so that I get a nice even amount of shields to my box (by temporary switching to something that requires less shields, rushbuy it and then switching back to what I want).
[This message has been edited by Marko_Polo (edited February 06, 2001).]

[rah]

Didymus, I haven't seen it mentioned here so I'll repeat and old one.

When a AI beats you to a wonder that you're developing, just don't change what you're working on. It will keep storing up shields (even more than needed to build the wonder) and then change it when a wonder you want becomes available.

This is used a lot in MP. Start building HG, when someone completes it, don't change. Now you can store up more than the 200 shields while you work towards Monotheism. This is very useful before trade. And if someone doesn't build HG, you get it and can race towards invention and democracy and be in Communism before HG expires. (or due a quick stint of WLTKDs along the way).

RAH

[Edward]

Rufus T. Firefly,

The listed turns to complete capitalization don't mean anything.

As soon as you switch to capitalization, that city no longer accumulates shields ('though it does get to keep the shields that were in the production box when you made the switch). Until you switch to building something else, that city will never accumulate any more shields, nor will it ever "build" capitalization. You can keep "building" capitalization indefinitely.

Capitalization kicks in immediately, no matter how many shields are in the production box (even if there aren't any). If the city used to generate say 5 shields and 7 coins per turn, it will now generate 0 shields and 12 coins per turn.

I guess it was easier to program by giving capitalization an arbitrary cost like any other option rather than do some if/else boolean branching to deal with it. The turns to complete capitalization, while varying from city to city, mean nothing.


non-capitalization aside: I hope Civ3 lets you roll over your extra shields after building stuff. All this even/odd rush buy micromanagement makes my head hurt!