To bribe or not to bribe....

[drake]

Since this is an opinionated thread and not one that requires "whether this is realistic or not " statements, I'm just going to state my opinion as it applies to civ, not real world.

I always have expectations of a grand war with my enemies, with strategies and battles and masterminded invasions and ambushes. And then some ***** democrat comes along and bribes my cities because they don't like war and losing city size, etc. Obviously the other civ had money to burn, but instead of building an intimidating, magnificent army to capture and conquer, they send a goddam diplomat to do their dirty work. Cowardly.

But thats just my opinion.....I respect everyone elses, so respect mine.

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Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

[DaveV]

I think one of the great things about Civ is that it allows different paths to victory. Build a potent military, a research giant, or an economic powerhouse. The concept of being able to bypass the military techs and buy out your enemy is a nice addition to the game. The problem with its implementation in Civ II is that it's just too cheap! You can buy a city and gain its units and improvements for much less than you would spend buying all that stuff in one of your own cities, and you pick up the additional production of the city. I really hope Civ III has a more sophisticated scheme for calculating city bribe costs.

[East Street Trader]

The British and the French (well, maybe more the English and the French) have fought each other with some regularity down the years. It would be a puzzle to me if anyone in either nation lacked respect for the fighting qualities of the other.

I suspect that in North American, denizens of the northern and southern states might exhibit a comparable state of mind as to their respective fighting qualities, although from a somewhat narrower evidential basis.

I don't know how the French explain the fact that they (with the BEM beside them) were swept aside by the Weremacht in WW11. I have seen it said that Verdun had sapped their will to fight but I suspect the reality is that they (and, initially, the Brits) were just outmanoevred by a brilliant German war machine.

That it was headed by a nutter is both the explanation for its creation and (thankfully to all) for its eventual failure.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 12-20-2000 10:57 AM I don't know how the French explain the fact that they (with the BEM beside them) were swept aside by the Weremacht in WW11.

Man, I must have been in a coma for centuries!

World War Eleven??? Who won 3 through 10??

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Frodo lives!

[Blaupanzer]

In Medieval times, cities were bribed all the time. Either the leaders were induced to join the other side, or some joker was induced to open a gate. Genghiz Khan's terror campaigns induced cities to surrender without a fight, a form of "bribing." Modern examples include the whole cold war in Africa thing and Chile stands as an example of American bribery. Bribery as portrayed in civ is a simplification of the assassination, undermining, using muscle without violence, and buying outright. That the cities in modern times did not become part of the buyer's state, does not mean they weren't bought.

Try a no bribe game against the AI sometime. It is really tough, even for a veteran player.

[Mercantile]

I still prefer to take cities the old fashioned way, by force. I only bribe small cities, and only when the captial is gone. For instance , yesterday, the Indian capital was captured by barbarians. I took the city by force. Moved my diplomat to the next city, and bribed it for 50g, it was only size 2 so it would have been destroyed (probably) had i mounted an attack. I captured two more cities and then bribed the very last one. I bribe to avoid destroying cities, unless they overlap one of mine then i just raze them to the ground

[Kitana]

Well, I was just playing a game and used both techniques. What I found was conquering a city takes more finesse than brute force. (I lost about 10 elephants trying to take a city on a river ) I would have stopped after two and bribed but it was the capital. I bribed a smaller city and took a couple cities. I found it nice to already have defense in the city. Granted I could just move my phalanx in from my attack stack...

Another question... does anybody destroy cities by placing units in every city square and let it die of starvation, sort of a siege technique?

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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese
[This message has been edited by Kitana (edited December 20, 2000).]

[drake]

Blauplanzer:

quote: Try a no bribe game against the AI sometime. It is really tough, even for a veteran player.

I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, because I don't think this is a significant achievement, but in games against the ai, I've never bribed a city and I've always been succesful. Why would you think that this would make things difficult?

Nice peice of historical information btw

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Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day
You fritter and waste the hours in an off hand way
Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town
Waiting for someone or something to show you the way

[Blaupanzer]

Drake,

Minor modification: I meant a no-bribe, conquer-the-world game. At deity, this is a challenge I occasionally enjoy. Obviously , if you're going for AC, as in OCC games, then the need for bribing disappears. Note that no matter what policy you follow the AI will still bribe if it can.

[Maelhavok]

Editorial:

Opinions are like a**holes,everybodies got one. If this one smells to bad take your nose out.
I have seen war. I remember friends that didn't come home. I don't know WHY. I do know that men fight, and men die. Scared,proud,angry,hopeful men. Men with families. Men with beliefs. No French. No Americans. No Canadians. Just men in HELL trying to do the best with what they've got. When they get home they deal with it. STOP PICKING SCABS!! The holidays for Christsakes. I can't believe that any army was much different than my experiences, my fathers or grandfathers. Your fathers and grandfathers. May they rest in peace.

No Appologies
For the Dead Rebels

Michael Maelhavok

[Blaupanzer]

Not sure of the point, I fear. I've been there, it's madness. What has this to do with games? Secondly, what scabs are we picking? Third, the holidays are about real world peace, not computer peace. Lastly, this game does permit an alternative, unlike virtually any other history-related game on the market. Ease up, join us in the fun.
[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited December 23, 2000).]

[Matthew]

Concerning the French:

The United States of America is the greatest power on Earth, and likely will be for some time to come. And it was the French who, over two centuries ago, helped to make this possible by liberating us from England. Granted, their motives were not altruistic, but they did fight with us for our liberty. And we did need them.

True, the French had problems defending themselves against Germany in 2 world wars and the Franco-Prussian war. But let's put this in perspective.

1. Germany has about twice the population of France.

2. In world war I Germany never controlled all that much of France, and with the form warfare had taken by that time, probably would have stopped the German advance on their own, although they certainly would still have needed help in taking it back.

3. In the beginning of world war II the other democracies suffered from most of the same weaknesses that the French did: A misunderstanding of the form the next war would take and a basic unwillingness to stand up for themselves and their friends. The French suffered from only one glaring weakness that they didn't share with the U.S. and England: They were right next to Germany.

4. Almost everyone else thought that the Maginot line would work too. In fact, it may well have, had Belgium and the Netherlands completed their portions of the Fortifications.


I usually play in no city bribe games. I would prefer to do other wise if their were more means to defend against the city bribe, especially early on. As it is, it's too unbalancing.

[La Fayette]

Thank you Maelhavok.
Thank you Matthew.

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Blaupanzer]

Sorry I missed the point earlier.

The fact that WWI was fought on French soil hardly means "the allies bailed them out." They took the brunt and survived until their allies had time to contribute.

In WWII, the French (and British for that matter) were outmaneuvered by the Germans. The Ardennes was "impassable." "Everyone knew" that, except the Germans. This type of strategic error is usually impossible to recover from, but hardly establishes the nature of the troops themselves.

One hundred years before WWI, it was the French who were the dominant land power. Once it was the Romans. Time changes, but as Maelhavok noted, the men at the front are just men, not nationalities, not philosophies. So avoid the cheap shots, folks.

In the meantime, I stick to my other point, when civ units go down, no mothers cry, no widows mourn, no chidren are orphaned. Much cleaner this way.