OCC alliances and gifts

[Tizzy]

I'm still pretty new to playing OCC, and one of the things I have most trouble with is alliances and gifts.It took me a while to start with to get over giving the AI techs which I really needed to build wonders before them ("no you will not build the Observatory before me!")
Forming the alliances to start with is no problem, but I do still have a problem with giving an AI Civ all my carefully acquired techs/money.
I got to the stage last night that I didn't have enough caravans in my city to build Ike's College, and had to get it done quickly as the Romans were also building it. I decided to push up my tax for a couple of turns to get the money to do it, when along come the Germans and demand all but 100 of my gold, otherwise they would declare war on me(the had already cancelled the alliance as I refused to declare war on the Mongols, another of my allies). I refused to pay up,and they marched straight through me in about 3 turns.

What do you do? How do you keep them sweet, and still manage to acheive the goals you need to quickly?

Tiz

[SCG]

If the civ has agressive tendancies (as both the Mongols and Germans both do), its hard to keep an alliance, period. And with MGE from what I've heard, its doubly so.

A couple of things that do tend to help me in keeping alliances have included having small amounts of cash on hand when contacting/being contacted, and having multiple techs available for gifting.

In the case of building INC, you could try incrementally buying part of the wonder (perhaps a 200 or 300 shield wonder and saving a caravan or 2). Also, if you are the one contacting, check the attitudes of the civs you are asking for gifts. Sometimes, I'll just pass on a civ in the usual gift/tribute round if the attitude is too low if i don't have enough extra techs or I have too much gold.

I'm sure that there are other tricks out there as well, since I'm still relatively new to the alliance thing

------------------
Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.

[cbn]

I have always thought that one of the methods to simply "win" at OCC was to have a perimeter of NON units sitting stacked and fortified on mountains or if not mountains then lesser but good defensive terrain. I am always giving techs and getting money in return so I used the money for the rush-builds and also for bribing units far enough away that they required no support. Some would explore and others return to the perimeter.

If you have this type of perimeter I find that the AI might attack for a bit but it doesn't matter. I usually find that after a few turns of tossing units against mountains the AI is only too willing to accept my tech gift for peace. Since I am no "threat" with my one city the AI has no motivation to continue the war. After all I have a "spotless" reputation.

The AI will war with you from time to time but the key is to be ready. In any time period , stacked fortified defenders can be very hard to kill. When I maintain this approach and have an adequate defensive set-up I can refuse to give away my carefully accumulated cash, knowing (hoping?) that my defense is adequate to hold him off. Two or three turns later (with the cash spent on some rush builds or bribes) I will give a lesser tribute (hopefully some tech) to get back to peaceful standing (but I will likely try to bribe some additional NON units to place in that direction in case the AI gets frisky again.

I have used this approach in my last three deity OCC games and achieved landings from 1899 to 1911 (not an expert I know). My empire was never threatened in either game since my City in each case was landlocked and I would maintain a perimeter at choke points from 3-8 squares out. Its a challenge to get good trade without a navy but I always managed to bribe at least one ship. To get a better score I will have to find a port site which opens up the chance of direct naval attack but also makes trade( and those big money and science bonuses) easier.

Good luck and Good OCCing

CBN

[Scouse Gits]

I've never played OCC in MP - but if you are running v2.42 I find that a virtually surefire ploy is to alternate swapping maps with begging gifts - very broadly I will tap the allies for cash every hundred years - obviously keep a weather eye on their attitude and if someone starts slipping don't even contact them

hope this helps, Tiz

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

[Ribannah]

Three hints:

[1] Keep one tech to give in reserve just in case your ally wants you to make war on another AI tribe. Then you can refuse and give the tech in compensation.

[2] Don't ask for a gift when you suspect your ally may not have at least 50 gold, unless you gave so many techs that your ally is worshipful. Because if your ally has no cash (or tech) to give, they will invariably break the alliance.

[3] Normally the AI tribes will not race you for key wonders except Darwin's Voyage (which may even be advantageous to you!) and Leonardo's Workshop (which may be valuable to you if you have several NONE Settlers).

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Tizzy]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 10-16-2000 08:20 PM [3] Normally the AI tribes will not race you for key wonders except Darwin's Voyage (which may even be advantageous to you!) and Leonardo's Workshop (which may be valuable to you if you have several NONE Settlers).

They also tried to beat me to the Observatory and the Theatre in this game!

Thanks for the hints, guys. I guess it's just a matter of practice, I'll get the hang of it eventually.

Tiz

[debeest]

Well, Tiz, in my last two OCC games the AI has beaten me to Colossus once and Copernicus once. I've won my last six Deity non-OCC games, but I'm about one for five in OCC, so it certainly takes at least a DIFFERENT skill, if not necessarily MORE skill.

I've had next to no trouble with AI aggression. The one game I won, I had a mountain fortress bottleneck against which the Greeks threw 1-2 units per turn for hundreds of turns, but the other games no one ever attacked me. (A lesson there?) And I've had little trouble keeping alliances most of the games. But I have a lot to learn about extracting gifts from the AI. You're not alone!

[tonic]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 10-16-2000 08:20 PM [1] Keep one tech to give in reserve just in case your ally wants you to make war on another AI tribe. Then you can refuse and give the tech in compensation.

In 2.42 I don't seem to have the option after refusal to offer the compensatory tech. The vital decision then is to opt for the lesser of the evils eg if the ally or the third civ is geographically closer. A lot also depends on the attitude of the ally. If it has been "enthusiastic" or better from you continuous gifting of techs, then your refusal of war would be overlooked.

quote: [2] Don't ask for a gift when you suspect your ally may not have at least 50 gold, unless you gave so many techs that your ally is worshipful. Because if your ally has no cash (or tech) to give, they will invariably break the alliance.

Again I find that if the Ally has been constantly enthusiastic, it would simply give the usual "I understand you plight but..." or "Don't stretch your luck.." without any threat to the alliance. From "cordial" downwards, then the probability that alliances will be broken will be greater.


I have been fascinated also by the stability of attitudes as a function of civ type. I wonder if others have noted that blue (eg Chinese) or yellow (eg Spanish) tend to remain "enthusiastic" or better after regular tech gifts and other like purple (Moguls) or orange (English) tend to deteriorate to poorer attitudes rather quickly eg when you don't gift them with techs say within 3 to 4 turns.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by tonic on 10-17-2000 08:09 PM Again I find that if the Ally has been constantly enthusiastic ....

Ah, but that doesn't happen in MGE. Allies go from worshipful to uncooperative in a single turn. You will have to build them up to worshipful again by giving 3-5 techs first, if you want to play it safe. Even that isn't 100% safe btw, worshipful allies have been known to cancel (and steal your tech and other such nasty habits - they're especially fond of rushing out of their cities to block your caravans).




------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[tonic]

Ribannah, this makes your OCC results even more impressive!

[Ribannah]

Thanks Tonic . One has to try and work around these handicaps. I'm still discovering new possibilities in every game, the Fortnight collection is really fantastic

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[tonic]

On the race to build Wonders, I have the same experience on 2.42 as Tizzy. The AI civs will build Cope's and Shakespeare's given the chance. The success in the race would seem to depend on how large the AI civ is.

[Tizzy]

I had thought that too, tonic, but hadn't been able to prove it.
It has seemed to me that the larger a Civ is, the more change they have of winning a wonder race.
Has anyone ever proved/disproved this?

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Tizzy on 10-20-2000 04:21 AM It has seemed to me that the larger a Civ is, the more change they have of winning a wonder race. Has anyone ever proved/disproved this?

If the theory is correct that the AI pools all of shields that its cities produce and then allocates them as it 'sees fit', you would expect a larger civ to have a better chance to build a wonder. Can't say I've studied it much though.

------------------
Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.