Vet Spies

[debeest]

Umm... to return to the titular topic... if that's OK...

Confirmation comes from the manual itself for city-in-disorder and empty-city (but I think it just says they're "cheaper"). There's no documentation for city-formerly-yours, but I've seen it stated as if it were definitively true. I can vouch for spies bribing cheaper than diplomats and for veterans bribing cheaper than rookies, although I don't think it's mentioned in the manual, but I'm pretty sure it's not cheaper by any consistent amount or ratio such as .84 or .67; I've tracked it.

This is a good opportunity to point out again that THE SCROLLS OF WISDOM ARE WRONG. The formulas given there for calculating the cost of bribing a city and for the immediate bonus and ongoing trade bonus of a freight or caravan are WRONG. They just don't work. (The demographics info is also pretty lame, although I don't think it's actually wrong.) In fact, as someone pointed out recently, the bribe cost sometimes varies depending on which square the spy approaches from, and there's nothing in Scrolls of Wisdom about that. I haven't figured out how to track back to the Usenet citation from ?Robert Lancaster?, but I would love to ask him or someone knowledgeable where those formulae came from and why someone originally believed them to be accurate.

[finbar]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 10-03-2000 08:23 PM Confirmation comes from the manual itself for city-in-disorder and empty-city (but I think it just says they're "cheaper"). There's no documentation for city-formerly-yours, but I've seen it stated as if it were definitively true. I can vouch for spies bribing cheaper than diplomats and for veterans bribing cheaper than rookies, although I don't think it's mentioned in the manual, but I'm pretty sure it's not cheaper by any consistent amount or ratio such as .84 or .67; I've tracked it.

The manual is famously inadequate. There would have to be a ratio involved in order for the software to make the calculation.

quote: In fact, as someone pointed out recently, the bribe cost sometimes varies depending on which square the spy approaches from, and there's nothing in Scrolls of Wisdom about that.

That surprised me too. The argument was that approaching from the side closer to the foreign Civ's capital rendered the city closer to the capital and therefore more expensive. But is that truly logical? The city is a certain number of squares from the capital. It doesn't and can't move. Surely the city's distance from the capital is the only factor involved.



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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[debeest]

Right, finbar, there has to be a formula. But my experience (having asked the same city on the same turn how much it would cost to bribe it with different units) is that it's not a SIMPLE formula such as x=.84y. The difference in cost between diplomat/spy/veteran spy varies according to factors I can't identify.

One of the bribe cost factors, identified by others, is which square you visit from, and I've verified by the same sort of experimentation that it does vary. Sometimes. If the formulae in the Scrolls of Wisdom were fully correct, they'd have to acknowledge that. Since they don't, they weren't derived from any kind of cold hard scientific experimentation or from the source code. So, why would we believe them?

[Edited to correct typo in formula]
[This message has been edited by debeest (edited October 04, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

The bribe cost - whatever formula is involved - certainly increases nearer the capital. I have noticed that a spy's ability to sabotage also seems to decrease nearer the capital. I am wondering whether there is also a link to the genaral spying success rate and proximity to the main city.
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SG (2)

[SCG]

If I were to rationalize the reason for the variable incite cost for a spy depending on direction, I would say that perhaps they were thinking that different neighborhoods in a city are more dissatisfied than others. We could use the Greater Los Angeles area as an example. If you wanted to get enough dissidents up in arms that the city would revolt, would you attempt to do so from Beverly Hills, or from Watts? The easy way to do this code wise is to use the corruption model already in use - and use spy location instead of city location.

[Scouse Gits]

It's been some time since I tried to verify this, but my memory tells me that the Scrolls formula for bribing works (basic non-vet Diplo) if the distance used is the distance between the enemy capital and the diplo himself - certainly this explains the known fact that it's cheapest to bribe from the far side from the capital.


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 10-03-2000 09:54 PM One of the bribe cost factors, identified by others, is which square you visit from, and I've verified by the same sort of experimentation that it does vary. [This message has been edited by debeest (edited October 04, 2000).]

I can't remember either as to who identified this but the crux of it is that you want to bribe from the square furthest away from the AI's capital. When it works, you feel like you just found a bargain in a garage sale.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.