Criticisms of my playing style wanted!

[The Mad Viking]

I have not played too many games, just one at each level, and now I'm on my 4th game at Deity.

I actually lost my 2nd game at Deity, very early, when the Romans attacked me so hard and fast I couldn't believe it. They'd take a city, ask for peace, then sneak attack. It didn't seem like the AI!

Anyway, for those of you who have never lost, (or quit/cheat before losing ) there is a neat end sequence you should look at.

Back to my playing style. Criticisms wanted!

I try to keep peace very hard at the beginning. In Deity, it seems that the AIs have way more serious military units than me.

I take the well documented fastest route to Monarchy.

I tend to avoid military advances, in favour of happiness and trade. I build the Collosus in my SSC. I build 1 phalanx and 2 warriors in each city. I try to get 3 or 4 cities quick, expand to 6 with Monarchy.

I usually ally with one nearby civ. I will give up non-critical advances to keep peace, but rarely money. I almost never break a peace treaty at another civs request. If I know its coming, I will demand tribute with my allies enemy, and have them declare on me.

I build a ton of caravans. I look for rich commodoties needed by large distant cities, and establish trade routes with my SSC first. Often, I home subsequent caravans to my SSC and forego the trade route in my weaker cities to maximize the science (and gold) from the caravan. I also use caravans to rush build wonders: Mikeys Church, Leo's Shop, Cops Ob, Sunny's Academy, Bach, & Hoover. Other wonders are non-critical, and I more likely will capture them.

My advances are based on getting these wonders. I don't do much attacking until I have artillery. (If I get riflemen before a neighbour has gunpowder, they're toast.)

I use dips, and love to bribe cities.

I tend to go to democracy when I have temples in larger cities and Mikes, and am nearing Bachs.

I avoid flight to keep the collosus. Once I had howies before flight, easy conquer.

I like to get to espionage, spies are key for me.

Veteran artillery are great, once you have engineers and have/build railroads they wreak havoc. Don't even need to take down walls unless defenders are veteran too. Of course once you have spies...

I probably don't go demo soon enough. I don't think I use WLTP day soon enough.

My 3rd game at Deity, I was nearly wiped out early, and couldn't get Cops Ob or Leos, but hung on to my capital/colossus. It was tough, I built the GL and spent minimum on science, then I bought the Leo city and things started to turn. I put two key caravans and a dip and sent it to Japan, but the damn Indians found it and sunk it. It took me until 1909 to dominate, and I rolled across the world by 1912.

[kcbob]

Not that I've played that many more games than you at deity but I'll try to be as constructive as I can.

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 09-22-2000 12:58 PM</font> the Romans attacked me so hard and fast I couldn't believe it. They'd take a city, ask for peace, then sneak attack. It didn't seem like the AI!

Sounds like the AI I know! BTW. You are definitely not playing OCC or ICS. You might want to try those options.

quote: I try to keep peace very hard at the beginning...(and) take the well documented fastest route to Monarchy.

Both musts! Although, as I said above, if you try an ICS approach sometime, kick butt!

quote: I tend to avoid military advances, in favour of happiness and trade.

Temples, anyone? After my first military unit, I go for a settler, and the next thing is a Temple. Assuming you have Cerimonial Burial.

quote: I usually ally with one nearby civ. I will give up non-critical advances to keep peace, but rarely money.

I play MGE so I have to give up whatever the AI wants whether it's advances or money. It hurts to give up 300 gold when your coffers are only holding 305 but you gotta do what you gotta do. Alliances are hard to come by.

quote: I build a ton of caravans. I look for rich commodoties needed by large distant cities, and establish trade routes with my SSC first.

I build caravans but almost exclusively for wonder building. This is an area that I could probably improve on. As for which wonders, MC, JSB, LW, and HD are good from your list. I don't personally go after Sunny's. I would add SoL, however. I can't stand multiple turns in revolt! I also like the GL. Let the AI do your research for you if you can.

quote: I use dips, and love to bribe cities... I like to get to espionage, spies are key for me.

Absolutely critical. Although I rush to espionage ASAP to get spies. They are extremely underrated!

quote: I tend to go to democracy when I have temples in larger cities and Mikes, and am nearing Bachs.

Most times I've ended in Demo although there have been a couple of times I said "Screw it" and switched to Fundy. Much easier fighting, n'est-ce pas?

quote: I avoid flight to keep the collosus.

I used to do this every game. Then it dawned on me that there were times when I delayed Apollo and AC because of it. Now, I don't worry that much about when I get flight.

quote: Veteran artillery are great, once you have engineers and have/build railroads they wreak havoc.

Nothing's sweeter that beating the AI to howitzers and having railroads everywhere.

quote: I don't think I use WLTP day soon enough.

I find this hard to use outside of OCC because of happiness problem (although I have just started relying on HG in ICS which maybe I should consider in
a "regular" game).

Don't know if this was what you were looking for. I suppose I could have shortened it and said "Your strategy sucks!" or "Right on!".

It sounds like you are right on, though! And kudos to you if you got to deity level after so few games at the lower levels! That is incredible.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited September 22, 2000).]

[Simpson II]

Hum, impressive! I got trashed on my first Deity game, I tried it after a couple of games at prince, before I found Apolyton. And I've seen that end-sequence a few times in OCC, I'm afraid.

Anyway, you asked for criticism and that's what I'm good at! Here we are -

"I tend to avoid military advances, in favour of happiness and trade. I build the Collosus in my SSC. I build 1 phalanx and 2 warriors in each city. I try to get 3 or 4 cities quick, expand to 6 with Monarchy."

Hmmm, a bit too much defence early on IMHO. OK to build after your settlers are out, but over-kill beforehand. You obviously know the happiness mechanics well. I'd suggest just expanding past the Despotism limit though, the benefits far outweigh the difficulties.
Also I suspect that your play-style would be augmented by an early Republic, not that you'll find many who will agree with me. How much do you tend to expand beyond that? If you stick at that level then there's very little reason not to go to a representative government early on. That way you can celebrate earlier, and you point out as something you want to improve upon.

"I build a ton of caravans. I look for rich commodoties needed by large distant cities, and establish trade routes with my SSC first. Often, I home subsequent caravans to my SSC and forego the trade route in my weaker cities to maximize the science (and gold) from the caravan."

If you intend to develop your non-SSC cities past aquaduct size whhile in a representative government, I'd definitely recommend three trade-routes apiece. The trade-boost is formidable, and if you maximize your trade output in all cities with Republic and WLTCD-growth then the size of the bonus is not quite so much greater. With so few cities you are going to be relying on your normal trade output much more heavily than on caravan bonuses.

"I use dips, and love to bribe cities."



"I tend to go to democracy when I have temples in larger cities and Mikes, and am nearing Bachs. "

What sort of tech path are you following? This sounds.. awkward, really. I wouldn't wait for Bach's before changing to Demo unless I wanted to race to Theology before Democracy. It does sound like you want to be more focused in your goverment choice.

All in all, though, you sound like you are making amazing progress. If you continue to improve at that pace then pretty soon I may be asking you for criticism on my play-style!

[Scouse Gits]

The most significant 'error' in your ways as far as we can see is the lack of any 'offensive defence' you need something on four legs to bite the offensive bits that come anywhere near your cities. With that in place you only need one defensive unit thus leaving you clear to build many more settlers - thus many more cities - You don't have to go all the way to a DaveV style ICS but you must expand, then expand and after that expand a little more!
_______________
The SGs in a bottle or two of red wine

[Smash]

You should intentionally play different strategies/plans.Follow different tech paths and different wonders.Or no wonders.
Next time go Sun's and try making war with vet knights.
After that try the super ironclad-gunpowder conquest scheme.
Then a small civ perfectionist AC game.
Then a rapid expansion plan
Then an early Fundy game
ETC

Its helps you recognize what the different terrain and specials are capable of.

When you feel confident of a win everytime try the Headstart Scenario.That has been very humbling for me.

[The Mad Viking]

Thanks to everyone who waded thru my verbiage and offered up advice!

(Keep 'em comin!)

smash:

quote: Next time go Sun's and try making war with vet knights.

I can't imagine YOU promoting such an idea!
Good advice though, the game I'm playing now is quite similar in feel, next time I'll try a military approach.

Scouse Gits:

quote: the lack of any 'offensive defence' you need something on four legs to bite the offensive bits that come anywhere near your cities. With that in place you only need one defensive unit thus leaving you clear to build many more settlers - thus many more cities

The game I'm playing now, I've bribed a slew of barbarian crusaders, which helps. I tend to delay the military advances greatly, I got industrialization before chivalry! However, I will get tactics soon, and all those crusaders will become: cavalry!

One problem I find with horse soldiers is their vulnerabilty to counterattack. Also, once I'm in democracy, it means allocating resources to entertainers/luxury whenever I leave a mounted unit outside of city/fort.

As soon as I switch to demo, I'm in fortresses on the perimeter, with one unit in interior cities.

About expansion

At lower levels, I was very expanisionist. I also used to play normal or even large maps. Now I play small maps to keep the game time down. I'm lucky to get 5 or 6 cities in before I'm hemmed at all borders. Then I boat it to open territory, find a choice spot, and start anew.

kcbob:

quote: Most times I've ended in Demo although there have been a couple of times I said "Screw it" and switched to Fundy. Much easier fighting, n'est-ce pas?

Fundies a must, once you have a tech/production edge, for conquest.

Thanks for the kind words.

SimpsonII:

quote: Hmmm, a bit too much defence early on IMHO.

Seems to be a consensus.

quote: What sort of tech path are you following? This sounds.. awkward, really. I wouldn't wait for Bach's before changing to Demo

I don't, and I switched even earlier this time. Bachs makes attacking in demo much easier.

I go for happiness and trade techs first, then a strong push for gunpowder and invention. Then toindustrialization. Made the mistake of communism before theology, stressed the happiness a little, but wanted those spies! Also push towards electronics and hoover. Finally, to machine tools, and world domination! (Explosives in there somewhere)

Thanks again!

[smilo]

quote: Originally posted by kcbob on 09-22-2000 01:33 PM Temples, anyone? After my first military unit, I go for a settler, and the next thing is a Temple. Assuming you have Cerimonial Burial.

Hmm, happiness is important but building temples this early on is, at least im my gamestyle, a bit to early. Temples cost money, not a lot but every gold counts in the beginning stage of the game. As you are following an expansionist strategy, you can keep your people happy by a combination of building settlers and post military units in your cities. First see to it that the number of military units is not bigger than your city size (at least until monarchy), but big enough to enforce military law. As your number of cities grow, be prepared to build Hanging Gardens, this will boost your happines and allow you to build more cities without much unhappiness problems. Nicely balanced you can have your cities grow to size 5-6 before having to build tempels (depending on their location and distance to the capital). Also see to it that the squares you work on have trade income (roads, rivers, special resources).

Never ever go to Republic ... it just isn't worth it.
I usually go straight for Democraty, research until I have all the advances nessesary to move my dips & spies fast across the globe and then swith, albeit shortly, to fundamentalism. During the research period I build loads of dips & spies, position them closely to my prime targets, switch to fundi and bang ... there go the other civs. The capials come first, no militar action just yet but water supply posioning .. once their capital reduced to mere villages, I throw in some nice offensive military units, bye bye capital. Then the dips and other spies bribe the other cities, this way I save a lot of cash and can take over other civs in the shortest time possible.

[DaveV]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 09-22-2000 12:58 PM</font> Often, I home subsequent caravans to my SSC and forego the trade route in my weaker cities to maximize the science (and gold) from the caravan.

Some people consider caravan rehoming a cheat. The game developers tried to eliminate it, but failed to close a loophole. Since you're winning anyway, why exploit a flaw in the game this way?
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited September 25, 2000).]

[kcbob]

I've tried repeated poisoning a couple of times. It worked pretty well, although I think we'd all agree it has to be done against smaller population cities. I can't imagine poisoning a city size 14 down to 1.

And as for happiness, I think a distinction again has to be drawn as to what approach you are taking. If it's ICS, HG is a must. If it's PE (Perfectionist Expansionism), sooner or later, temples come into play. I happen to prefer sooner. Maybe that's because I forego HG in favor of Colossus and GL.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[smilo]

Even for big cities poisoning is a very handy technique. Even if you reduce the city only to 2/3 its original state, it can have a major influence on its defences as you cut out part of its shield income and can't support all off its units. Off course its always good to check on its defenses first.

[The Mad Viking]

DaveV:
hmmm, never thought about it that way. OK, no more rehoming- cheat or not, a very modest handicap.

smillo
I'm interested in the tactic of repeated poisoning- I guess in a well defended city, you can reduce it to size 1 and just kill one defender to destroy the city? Do the spies get captured much?

I usually take out the city walls, kill every unit, and keep whats left of the capital. Often it has a wonder.

I kind of like the Hanging Garden, but for me the Collosus is a must, and unless things go really well, I'm not able to complete HG until its time for Mikes. So I haven't built it much in Deity. I like to rush to railroad, so...

[geofelt]

At deity, I expand to 4 or 5 cities asap on the way to monarchy. If monarchy is coming slow, I build a settler and units while I am waiting. I start hanging gardens in my palace as soon as it has spawned one setler. This lets me expand with no unhappiness initially in every new city, and gives me republic science early. If forced to choose, I take HG before colossus. After HG, you can expand to any number of cities easily.
Statue of liberty is high on my list. As soon as I get it, I go democracy and grow most cities until I get diminishing returns. You don't need temples or mkts for a while. You can always go fundy to control unhappiness, but I usually go communist which is more effective than monarchy.
Excepting OCC, I don't make alliances. Those close by civs are the first targets for my expansion.
I also like great wall. Barbs and the AI will not bother you, and you can expand like crazy.
I take over most cities by bribery, but vet catapults can take walled phalanx on normal terrain if necessary.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by geofelt on 09-27-2000 04:15 PM I also like great wall. Barbs and the AI will not bother you,

[slap forehead]Duh!![/slap]

I hadn't thought of that. Would this make that much of a difference with MGE? Any advantage would help. I'll have to try this one. Thanks, geo.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[The Mad Viking]

thats pretty impressive geo. Do you play on a small map?

I can't imagine consistently expanding that fast, and attacking so soon.

In the game I'm playing now, I built my second city pretty quick, and the Aztecs showed up with a horse, and entered the city next turn before my rush-built unit formed. Now, one city, and need to build a new settler.

I got barbs from 2 of the 1st 3 huts.

My 3rd city got to size 4 (I had 5 cities by then) and was sacked by barb crusaders, who beat fortified musketeers. (no walls, internal city but on coast-damn pirates.)

I tend to find a rival civ swarming all over me with 4 horse/chariot/archer units while I'm still trying to build warriors. The only game I ever lost was when I didn't/couldn't form an alliance.

But I will try a game with HG instead of Collosus, and see how that helps expansion/saves on temples/assists with WLTPD.

I love Metallurgy. I don't build so many cities in Deity, so I have pretty much abandoned the great wall. Loved in in those hyper-expansionist large map games at lower levels.