another rookie question

[DaveV]

My theory on the growth question: if you are generating more food than is required to fill the food box, it will still only fill the box. I think the game remembers the surplus food, though, and you will grow the next turn even if you're not producing a food surplus. I've never tried this with a food deficit. Maybe if the deficit is less than the surplus on the previous turn?

Edit: on the other hand, SCG is probably right. Never mind...
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited August 22, 2000).]

[Carolus Rex]

More on the food box.

This is what I'm sure about.

i) Any food that more than fills the box is wasted. If you need one more food to fill the box and the city produces a surplus of two, then the extra food is wasted. That's something to micromanage, I dare not speak on whether you should max shields or trade.

ii) The game doesn't remember the wasted food. If you shuffle workers around so you get zero surplus when the box is filled, then the city grows and have no food in the box. If you shuffle workers around and have a three food surplus when the box is filled, then the city grows and have three food in the box.

I'm not sure on the deficit, though. I've always (by habit) made sure that I have a surplus >=0 when the box is full. Easy enough to test, though.

Carolus

[tobyr]

There's an easy way to check for disorder, but it's not a very pure solution:

Set the game option to pause at end of turn. EVERY TURN, save the game (I find this less confusing than trusting the auto-save function).

Don't bother to check for disorder. But if a city goes ito disorder, go back to the previous saved file and try to fix it the problem.

NOTE: If you have many cities and a lot of population, the happiness display can frequently show you FALSELY that a city is unhappy. You go to the city and find out that it is really OK. The cheat I described above is a lot nicer than checking these false unhappiness warnings every turn.

- toby



------------------
toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[Carolus Rex]

And in MP?

Carolus

[My Wife Hates CIV]

here's my two cents. it's a rare situation i'm sure but something to know anyway.

if your city is size 8 with a food box that's full (size 9 next turn), building an aqueduct (rush building) is a waste of gold. the population growth takes place before building does. i found this out the hard way after borrowing some gold from Rah in a MP game. My city stayed at eight and the food box emptied.

[tobyr]

I believe that Sten Shure's method of changing the rates -- to make the happiness screen update for the current turn -- does not avoid the bug in ToT that causes some cities to appear unhappy, even though they appear OK when you go to the actual city display.

-toby

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV on 08-22-2000 01:12 PM here's my two cents. it's a rare situation i'm sure but something to know anyway. if your city is size 8 with a food box that's full (size 9 next turn), building an aqueduct (rush building) is a waste of gold. the population growth takes place before building does. i found this out the hard way after borrowing some gold from Rah in a MP game. My city stayed at eight and the food box emptied.

just don't confuse that with growung via WLTxD - checks for celebration are made after food checks and production checks.

IIRC,
1)the game checks food, then grows or suffers famine if necessary.
2)checks production, building or disbanding if necessary
3)checks happiness, putting into effect the appropriate bonuses or disorder

I'm not quite sure when the checks for deficit spending are since i'm usually dilligent enough or overcompesated enough that selling of my structures due to lack of funds doesn't happen that often and so not sure if selling of a happiness structure would cause disorder in a previously content city the same turn or not. (sorry )

[Smash]

Just in case there was any confusion,I was refering to the happy screen in the city window.Not the happiness advisor.

I don't know about that advisor.You can see your cities and some in red don't show up until you scroll thru each city individually.

Kinda like "This was the state of affairs last time you passed thru your worship"

Could be a bug,could be a feature.


I'm the person they made "preview your post" for.


[This message has been edited by Smash (edited August 22, 2000).]

[tonic]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 08-22-2000 05:08 PM I don't know about that advisor.You can see your cities and some in red don't show up until you scroll thru each city individually. Kinda like "This was the state of affairs last time you passed thru your worship"

True, even with a moderate-sized civ it's a pain having to keep track of all the cities that are filling up their boxes. You often find out the hard way, the next turn. That's one more reason I'm on the OCC wagon.

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 08-22-2000 11:31 AM i) Any food that more than fills the box is wasted. If you need one more food to fill the box and the city produces a surplus of two, then the extra food is wasted. That's something to micromanage, I dare not speak on whether you should max shields or trade.

very true, although if you are producing more than 2 food surplus, you may want to start micromanaging several turns in advance.

quote: ii) The game doesn't remember the wasted food. If you shuffle workers around so you get zero surplus when the box is filled, then the city grows and have no food in the box. If you shuffle workers around and have a three food surplus when the box is filled, then the city grows and have three food in the box.

almost. when it grows naturally, you also get the new worker's output, if any. I use that to my advantage to control where the AI puts the new worker. I take the tile that the AI is mostlikely to want to use and remove the worker from that square, placing the rest of the workers where I want them, and let the AI place the new worker in the place I just removed it from. If it was an oasis or wheat, sometimes I have a food deficit going into the next turn, but come out with a surplus again.

When growing via WL days, you don't get the new worker's output on the turn of growth, so what you said before is correct there.

quote: I'm not sure on the deficit, though. I've always (by habit) made sure that I have a surplus >=0 when the box is full. Easy enough to test, though. Carolus

tested thoroughly through a lifetime of Civing

------------------
April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

[Sten Sture]

edit - SCG - great point about giving the AI an obvious (food related) choice for where to apply the new worker.

CR - I think toby's method also works in MP, you just have to have everybody get out and reload!

A tip for the attitude function key screen that helps with all of this stuff -

If you look at the Attitude Advisor ((F4) at the end of your turn it will not reflect changes in the cities that took place that turn. You can reset it by changing your tax/lux rates (shift+T) - (maybe to 0% sci to check your research cost) and then changing it back. This will not prevent problems from growing the next turn, but can help catch obvious problems from having the disorderly cities rotate.

Another tip when you are using multiple specialists - make the Elvis guys first and then leftovers as Scientists and Accountants - that way when you build a settler you don't lose an Elvis and get unhappy.

For potential shield support losses when building a settler - know that the AI will remove a worker from anything that doesn't produce a lot of food regardless of trade or shields or specialness. Grassland will stick, but build a shield cushion by re-allocating your workers to multiple shield producing terrain. Three forests can't be entirely removed, but one iron mountain will certainly get the boot.

[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited August 22, 2000).]