space race with minimum cities-strategies-

[Matthew]

How about a 6 player 3 on 3 arena style game, one city a piece, and possibly no wonders except appollo program? We could probably do it single production. The game would still go by pretty quick. With 3 cities each it could probably be done without the science wonders, especially with the huge trade bonuses between the enormous cities, and 6 humans researching the tech (you know there would be plenty of tech stealing).

[Ming]

3 on 3 would be tough... money would be a problem... but at least you wouldn't have to worry about losing your city to bribery.

Well, I couldn't take Rah's record. Missed by 3 years. Didn't get the science fast enough. Well, I'll try again. With all the work I have to do around our house, an hour here and there is easier to do than MP. I will keep trying.

[geofelt]

I was cheated!!
I launched a 15/3,3/1,1,1fusion ship in 1930, expecting to land in 1945, beating rah's record. But no!
The babylonians discovered space flight in 1931, discovered plastics, and superconductor and launched a 29/7,7/1,1,1 no fusion ship in 1934 arriving in 1942.
I checked out their 16 cities, and 5 had production of less than 10. No city produced more than 60, and most were in the 20's and 30's. If each city produced something every turn, it would have required 44 city/turns out of the available 48--not likely, I think, even considering the smaller deity production box. I don't think gold was used, they ended up with 7000.
This is sad, because I had a really nice gams. Guess I'll try again.

[Ming]

Yes geofelt... you were screwed.
The trick is to harass the AI's and force them to concentrate on military. Once they get Superconductor... it's all over. The game where I didn't beat rah's record, none of the AI's were even close in the science race. They were too busy building military and giving me money.
Question, did you trade sciences with them after the early part of the game? I find it is better to never give them any advanced science. Make them do the research themselves.
But even though you got beat, it just shows the record can indeed be beat. The only question is, who will do it first.

[rah]

Well I tried again and I'm in the late 1800 and it doesn't look good. Unless I get the perfect science path going out, it ain't going to happen. Only 5 other civs caused a problem with money. I didn't build the great library this time and it didn't seem to matter. They gave me all the simple sciences as tribute. I am still way ahead in the science race. And geofelt, you were screwed but I'm also interested to know if you traded sciences with them later in the game. If you did, it's your own fault. I also believe harassment of the enemy is critical. They have lots of cities that only produce units instead of city improvements which really slows their science development. And as we all know, hehehehe, once they get superconductor, your spaceship better be long gone or you're toast. I may try once more, but that despotism challange is starting to sound interesting. I can't believe my first completed attempt still stands as a record. I'm particularly disappointed with Ming. (imagine appropriate childish taunting noises here)
RAH

[Adam Smith]

You may still be able to help yourself by trading technologies late in the game. If you are about to get off the science path you need, pick something that an AI has, research it for one turn, then trade it to the AI for whatever. Next turn you get to pick a new tech to research, and will probably get back on the path. At a minimum, it takes less time to get back on the path you need. You may even save time overall if AI's can research faster than you.

[Ming]

I understand what you are saying Adam Smith. And I have done that at low levels before. But to give the AI's any advanced science is the road to death if you ask me.
And Rah... I did hear the "childish taunting noises"... Your record will fall.

[rah]

The science wonders are a must. I have never built krc in any game I've ever played. I'm always too busy building other wonders. (what does it do anyway, hahaha) I have stopped building GL and HG. Ming is right, get to medicine and build ST. ..and no, the AI does not mimic a slow human start.
Until Ming kicks my ass, I have to assume that I had the better strategy.
(The keyboard just can't express the proper attitude on childish taunting noises)
RAH

[Bird]

I've built Shakespeare's in every game, and the need to do so is generally why I can't get both Copernicus and KRC. Happiness, for me, has not been a problem: temple and colosseum usually take care of things until ST (perhaps with a few turns at 10% luxuries towards the end). I haven't built HG ever, but was thinking of doing so just to experiment with WTLPD in monarchy. Any thoughts on whether that would be productive?

[geofelt]

A key is the science rate at the end of the game. I don't trade ANYTHING then. The AI will give it to everyone. I did trade for something in the middle, but only a tech that the other civs already had.
I think you want all the science wonders. This not only helps you, but it slows the AI. I always like KRC, but perhaps it is not necessary. My best cities have the potential for 80 shields-net. A city with 5 hills(esp wine/coal) and 5 river squares is ideal. If it can be defended from mountains nearby- then perfect. In such a city, then KRC may not be needed, only to deny it ti the AI. I have been trying to build the great library, part for me, and part to keep the AI down.
Question; do you all trade for techs early, use the GL, or develop them all yourself? Before embassy, I trade once to see what the new civ has.

[Bird]

A couple of comments and questions from someone who hasn't succeeded at this yet.

In my most recent attempt, I spent the first 2000 years (what is that, 20 turns?) picking up goodie huts and looking for a good starting location. By the time I settled the city, I had contacted three of the other four civilizations and I don't think any of them had more than one city, and only one of those was size 2. Does the AI mimic a slow start by the human player? If so, it seems to minimize the risk of falling too far behind one of the other civs in science. The problem, in my game at least, was at the back end of the game. I probably could have launched a space ship by 2015, but it wasn't going to arrive by 2020. (Those of you who are focused on arriving before 1935 can stop chuckling now.)

It is really tough to get enough money to buy a decent NON military. Do you mostly pick off barbarian units or do you aggressively pursue other civ units as well? Either way, I think I'm going to have to work on my skills demanding tribute.

You have Colussus. If you have to choose between KRC and Copernicus, which would you take? Do you think you can win without one of those?

[Bird]

One other thing. I've been playing on small world with five civs. Is there a consensus that seven civs is easier? Seems to me it would allow more tribute and slow down the expansion of other civs. Tonight, seven it will be.

[Ming]

Without tribute, you don't have the money to bribe and buy... It's that simple. The only real early money is barbs and the small change from huts. Once the other civs start getting money, let the tribute begin.
And go for 7 civs. I get pissed when I set 7 and end up with less. The more civs, the more tribute.
And Copernicus is a must to get science going. KRC is nice, but most of the games I've played, I haven't built it. I've built Colussus in every game. The hanging gardens is nice, but I can now live without it. I pray I get medicine from a hut so I can work on ST... because that is the answer to happiness...
Keep on trying... it's fun.

[Ming]

Your problem geofelt is a classic one. You are hung up on production and not trade. Your idea of a good city gives it away. Coal, who cares... give me wine, spice, gold, and other trade specials. My current game has two gold, a fur, and a whale. Yes, I'm light on production (I have converted a grassland to hills to jump the production a little. All you really need is 55 production. That way, one freight and your 55 allows a structure to be built. Money can be used to buy up everything else.
Who cares what your production... tell my how much trade you have. That is what keeps you ahead in the science race. The game I'm playing now (and I better finish before rah posts an even better record) the other civs are so far behind it's great. There will be no way they will be able to pull that launch after me but beat me anyway crap. Now I just I have to finish up and see if 1953 will be going down.
Now to answer your questions. I trade very early only. There is a rare time when I might trade a middle science if all they ask for is something stupid. (mono for navigation was the last one I did) Otherwise, no trading for me. Plus, you can usually get them as tribute. Which brings me to the next point. Go for the science wonders. You must have them in the end. GL is no longer of interest to me. It doesn't matter if an ai gets it, because they would trade anyway. At the point in the game when I can build it, there are better things to be doing. Any sciences you really need you can get through tribute. After the early period, 99% of all sciences, I develope myself.

[rah]

Gee... after reading that novel, all I can say is.....Same strategy as me. What a surprise. The record will depend on how lucky a start position and luck on the huts. This tells me the record will fall because all it will take is persistence. Ming has plenty of that.
BUT UNTILL THEN: (CAPITAL CHILDISH TAUTING NOISES)
Somehow I know the payback on that will be a b*tch.
On to despotism.
RAH