Wonder Building Tip

[inca911]

Perhaps this has been discussed before, but after the invention of Trade, I recommend never starting a Wonder in a city until you have:
1. Enough caravans stored up to complete the wonder.
2. Shield output in the city of such a nature to make caravan building inappropriate (>50 certainly, but >30 is also not very effective since you "lose" shields by using 60 shields to build one 50 shield caravan)

The benefits to this approach are simple. By building caravans, you have the flexibility to alter your production as needed in that city without jeopardizing your Wonder shield accumulation. Say the neighbors decide to stop by unexpectedly and you don't have a big enough welcome party for them, now you can build it, save your city, and still win the Wonder race! Additionally, if you were to lose the race to the desired Wonder, your caravans can be saved for the next Wonder without the annoyance of having a city wasting shields in trying to fill a completed Wonder box. Or immediately use the now unneeded caravans to establish more trade routes, gold, and science bonuses. In the pre-Trade world, if you want a Wonder very early, then caravan hoarding does not apply. Anyone know of any detriments to this approach? It's the only way I build post-Trade wonders, and Trade typically happens very early in my games to boost Science development.
[This message has been edited by inca911 (edited July 13, 2000).]

[Tom DeMille]

This is the common strategy in OCC. I would recommend however that you not store up commodity caravans in this way. I generally always build food caravans if I intend to use them to rush build a wonder. That way, your commodities are still available when you want to set up more trade routes.

[Sabrecat]

Unless of course you have hides . actually, one of my hides supplies ran out, i thought that they were inexaustable

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SABRECAT

--The man who dies with the most toys is still nonetheless... dead.

[Steve Clark]

I have gotten to the point that with the exception of the first wonder, Colossus, ALL wonders are built with caravans/freights. That is why we say, "if you have built more caravans than you need, BUILD SOME MORE."

[Scouse Gits]

As has been remarked above this is standard practice in OCC - but then not everyone plays OCC...
Another major advantage of building Wonders this way is that it is easy and cheap to 'rush build' caravans -- once your production reaches the magic number of 10 shields a caravan takes two turns and costs about 75 gold.
You alow your 10 shields to go into the caravan box, change to Phalanx (or Horseman) and buy, change to Archer (or Diplomat) and buy, change to Legion (or Trireme/Caravel) and buy - you now have 40 shields in the box and have spent 75g - next turn you have a caravan.
Sorry this is old hat to the 'vets' but I thought it might be useful to some of the newbies...


[Edited for stupid typo]
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited July 13, 2000).]

[Carolus Rex]

Tom,

To the best of my knowledge the good carried by a caravan used for wonderbuilding, is instantly available in the original city.

So, in my experience the supply of a commodity does not end when a caravan helps building a wonder and hence there is no need to keep track of the caravans for that reason.

That being said, I always use a food caravan over a goods caravan given the choice as the latter can be sent out to trade with.

BTW, I'm curious about the early science path in OCC. Is it mainstream to go for Trade after Monarchy to get the caravans for Colossus?

Carolus

[cavebear]

Carolus, it's true that the trade goods return to availability when the caravan is used for Wonder-building, but sometimes those caravans hang around waiting to be used for a while, which locks up that trade good. Someone more trade-aggressive than me might find that a serious restriction on the use of the more valuable trade goods.

Having said that, I still tend to use trade goods on the caravans intended for Wonder-building. Why? Well, often enough, I find I have a couple of really perfect trade goods when an opportunity for off-continent trade opens up. I will (selectively) divert caravans from my cache in that case.

Committing food trade to a caravan bothers me. I've read that it does not take food away from the host city, but I've never tried it. Is that really true?

[Hasdrubal]

I agree with the concept of building wonders with caravans. The bulk of the shields for my wonders derive from them.
But, IMO, the concept should not be taken to far. 50 shields spend on a caravan that has to wait for, say, thirty turns, before it gets added to a wonder, is too large an investment without any return for too long. If one had spend those shields on a marketplace or had send that caravan off to establish a trade route, the return generated in those thirty turns would cover the cost of buying a new caravan by the time it is actually needed, on top of the improvement/route that was also created. The same holds true for three caravans that have to wait for ten turns.
So, when you think you have build enough caravans, you just might have.

Cavebear, food caravans don't deplete food until establishing a food route.

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Hasdrubal's Home.
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

[geofelt]

If I don't have enough gold or caravans to build a wonder quickly, I also start with building a few food caravans. If you have production of 10, 13, 17, or 25 shields, there is not much waste. I notice that the AI seems to know which wonders you are building, and will follow suit to compete. If I abandon my usual many wonder strategy, I find that the AI will not try to build some at all! I also try to start with a wonder that I do not care about and shift at the last moment. I have no idea if this deception helps--does anyone--?

[vik]

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 07-13-2000 07:18 PM BTW, I'm curious about the early science path in OCC. Is it mainstream to go for Trade after Monarchy to get the caravans for Colossus?

Pretty much. We take a little excursion to get writing before trade (usually), if it is available.

Bronze Working - Monarchy - Writing - Trade.

[DaveV]

If things are going well for me, I'll build just enough caravans for a wonder, then micromanage the shields so all the caravans are within one turn's movement of my capital on the turn I make the discovery that makes that wonder available. When the capital completes the caravan, I change its production to the wonder. Then all the caravans charge into the capital and build the wonder in a single turn. You lose one turn's production from the capital this way, but I think it's the most effecient way to go.

I agree with Hasdrubal that stockpiling caravans is a waste, although I'd spend the shields on settlers instead of improvements .

[Carolus Rex]

I hear ya', cavebear!

"So, when you think you have build enough caravans, you just might have." Heretic!!!

Seriously, finally someone who doesn't mechanically repeat jpk's caravan slogan! [Carolus Rex looks for a way to create a thumb's up-smiley, but fails]

But, IMHO wonderbuilding with caravans is a question of speed and timing. It really should be done in one turn, at least in MP.

vik,

Does that mean you build the library before the Colossus? Sorry if this is spelled out in the forthnight threads, but I'm not à jour with OCC...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Missed DaveV's post.

Two personal points:

i) Even though being optimal, I usually don't time it with the discovery of the tech. Too complicated for my brain! I'm happy if I have three caravans within the city's reach when it builds the fourth caravan.

ii) You waste a turn's production, but maxing trade isn't a bad alternative is it?

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited July 14, 2000).]

[Ming]

I don't mind hording caravans if I know that there is a purpose for them. If there are some good wonders that are going to be available in the near term future, I consider them an investment, and not a waste.

I also like to time it so I can build a wonder the turn I get the science. In MP, it's too easy to get screwed... Nothing better than getting the science, seeing that it is white, and then using all those horded caravans to build it in one turn... Unless somebody steals the science, and then gives it to another player that moves after them but before you... the wonder is yours!

[Adam Smith]

I agree with Ming. You need to have both the technology AND the means to exploit it. If you are going to get the technology a couple of turns early, it is sometimes worth raising your tax rate just a bit and using the proceeds to rush buy the needed caravans. I usually use food caravans to build wonders and commodity caravans to trade. Much easier to keep track of 'em all that way. However, sometimes you can use a commodity caravan to build a wonder and change what the origin city supplies. This can be pretty useful if you have some high value trading destinations within reach.