Quicktime to AC

[Civ-wrecked]

>have you tried using an entertainer in your >size 3 cities? even with 30% luxuries I can
usually get my size 3 >cities to 5 just on a marketplace and maybe >a temple depending on #
> of sea spaces available

Normally, I only need a market place and all would work well up to over size 8 before I need a bank (since I always try to get the HG and Cure for Cancer, BTW).
The failure to pop boom problem only happens in the time period between the discovery of RR and building the Cure of Cancer. Even if I use 100% luxury and turn workers into entertainers I can never get the number of happy citizens to be more than the number of content citizens. Therefore, size 4 city will get 2 happy and 2 content and will pop boom but a size 3, or 5, or any odd number city will ALWAYS have less happy citizens than content citizens and can't pop boom. That makes the pop boom plan pretty dysfunctional . Now I always have to plan for the pop boom before the discovery of RR, and also try to delay this RR dicovery as much as possible, even to the point of leaving the AI to get to it first.
I mentioned this fact a few years ago and some people also noticed this.

[Matthew]

Adam Smith

Sorry, I misunderstood. Certainly trading with yourself isn't a cheat. I find that going forign is generally worthwhile however. Especially on a large world with most of your cities close together. I do like to establish some cities off continent to get some two continent self trading going, however.

What kind of trade bonuses are you getting?

Sounds like you're doing pretty darn good.

Yes, celebrating after the railroad and before CfC is a real pain. In fact the railroad can suck for another reason as well.

In my last attempt I wasn't careful enough about trading certain techs away, and the Romans got the railroad. It wasn't until after a surprisingly low trade bonus that I realized that I had screwed myself more than I had thought. The railroad halves all trade bonuses. So I had to get to corporation before caravans were worth much again.

If you are in democracy you can also build courthouses to help celebrate. I think it likely best to content yourself with just a few big cities and build courthouses rather than CfC if you are going for a quick launch.

By the way, where could I get an SOC challenge map?

I've thought of trying on a medium size world map, but I don't know how long some of the AI's would last, as so many of them are so packed together in Europe.

I can usually get Collossus, HG, and MPE (necessary if you are alone in America on a large world map) by 650 BC or sooner. It basically ammounts to rapid expansion to 7-10 cities,building another set of settlers for roads and irrigation, then turning your entire civ into a caravan factory.

My early tech usually prioritizes getting to Astronomy and Navigation. I like Magellans because it is so good for long distance trading. I like Mono too, but I can't help but wonder if I shouldn't send those 8 caravans off on trade routes and buy either Cathedrals or collosseums in the few cities I want to celebrate instead. It's just hard for me to turn down a 400 shield wonder that is just 40 shields cheaper than 3 of the many cathedrals it would replace. If I were just trying to focus on the SSC I would skip it, but I believe that on a large map the fastest way to victory is probably to have an SSC and 5 or 6 other cities you concentrate on as trade cities, and use the rest in a supporting role.

[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 05, 2000).]

[Paul]

Civ-Wrecked, I never seem to have your problem. Do your cities perhaps have any units in the field? I only get that problem when my city gets larger than 20. In that case you will need a courthouse which makes a content citizen happy in democracy.

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Civ-wrecked on 07-05-2000 07:04 PM Even if I use 100% luxury and turn workers into entertainers I can never get the number of happy citizens to be more than the number of content citizens. Therefore, size 4 city will get 2 happy and 2 content and will pop boom but a size 3, or 5, or any odd number city will ALWAYS have less happy citizens than content citizens and can't pop boom.

personally, I'm surprised - even in my outer cities of a republic, i usually can get a city from 3 to 5 by working the high trade squares exlusively (ocean, trade specials) and using elvi. of course in republic i have to push my luxuries up to about 50%. And I can't remember the last time I built the hanging gardens - someone always seems to build it before i do. Now for lower luxury rates, i do have that problem for odd sized cities greater than 5, but with a trade special or a trade route or 2, that usually can be overcome for the mid-sized towns. As one other thought, I've recently rediscovered the value of courthouses. I still don't build too many of them, but they do provide a nice boost to a city that just doesn't have enough food to produce the # of elvi needed to celebrate.

[arii]

A while ago (at least 6 months ago) I went through a similar type of challenge. But I did not restrict myself with tributes,...
I landed if I remember well in 1060AD. I built a lot more cities than you. You can try to fish out the thread for more details.

[Civ-wrecked]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 07-06-2000 07:07 AM And I can't remember the last time I built the hanging gardens - someone always seems to build it before i do. Now for lower luxury rates, i do have that problem for odd sized cities greater than 5, but with a trade special or a trade route or 2, that usually can be overcome for the mid-sized towns. As one other thought, I've recently rediscovered the value of courthouses.

I meant the problem happens during this time period between the end of the HG and the build of the CfC, not because the lack of the HG or the CfC. I can pop boom without the HG before the discovery of RR as well with only 30% lux, but after RR, the happiness bug hit and I can't get a pop boom in any odd-size cities, even those with over 100 trade arrows, regardless of how much luxury rate I use. I just get the same number of happy citizens for any luxury rate between 30% and 100% in a democracy. I use the original CivII CD so I might have a bug that has been fixed in later versions/patches, I guess.
Anyway, back to the topic, thanks Matthew for the pointer, I think my problem is the lack of early foreign trade routes since I mainly trade with my SSC. Back to the drawing board again. I do hate sailing by triremes !!

[Adam Smith]

Matthew:
Last I checked I was getting trade bonuses of about 100 by using cities on the outer edges of my territory for trade and interior cities for food and wonders. I may need to boost city size to keep this going, but the decent sizes foreign cities are hard to reach.

You can find the first (and so far only SOC challenge game HERE, posted coourtesy of John-SJ. If this link doesnt work, drop me a line and I will e-mail you a copy. Its a really sweet start.

[Matthew]

Arii

Dag nab, tribute or no that's pretty impressive. What size map? I've been playing on a large world map in hopes of doing a lot better than one could with OCC. But I'm no longer so sure OCC wouldn't work on a large world map. Someone ought to try it. Perhaps the best place for it would be China. Far enough from most civs for a reasomable chance for security, yet you don't have to build MPE to contact the rest of the world like I do playing the Sioux.

[arii]

It was a small random map. It would be interesting to try on a world map.

[patriot]

quote: Originally posted by Matthew on 07-02-2000 06:06 PM Playing on a large world map as the Sioux, with the other civs being the Chinese, Vikings, English, Romans, Egyptians, and the Zulus (original starting positions), restless tribes, and without once asking for tribute or gifts [This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 02, 2000).]

What level were you playing at? I have only been playing for about 1 month and I always play at (diety/raging hordes/large world). Is the performance you describe possible at this level?

I would also appreciate some tips on growing cities quickly. Do you have to go straight to republic to do this or do you start with monarchy?

Thanks.

[Matthew]

Just landed in 1455 A.D. again as the Sioux (Chief Stinking Skunk.) Large world map, against English, Chinese, Romans, Zulus, Egyptians, and the Vikings. Again without rehoming caravans or askinf for tribute. I don't know how effective asking for tribute would have been anyway on a continent all by myself. I was too powerful for most of the game to get anyone to ally with me (except by going to war with another civ, but that is bad for camels.) This time I dispensed with JSB, CfC, and Adam Smiths, building CO, CL, INC, HG, MPE, MC, Magellans, and of course Apollo. I got Space flight around 1260 A.D. but it took me a while to muster up the cash to build the Space ship. Trade routes weren't that good this time. I didn't get a single rout over 800 gold, and very few over 600. I gave almostevery civ Automobile, but no forign city ever demanded oil at any time. If 3 or 4 had it would have easily cut 150 years off of my landing date. I didn't build any cities in Australia this time, only a few in South America. It would have been nice to have a city in Australia or 2 demand oil this time, even if they were my own and were size 1.
I focused on growing my SSC and 5 other good trade cities. My SSC gor to size 28 in the end, and topped 1000 science (maybe more before the collossus expired) but none of the other trade cities got over size 14, I could have done it, but as space flight was approaching it became obvious that resources, not tech, would be the limiting factor, and it would not be worth expending the resources to grow much more. I should have either tried to get a few more cities up to size 12 rather than trying to get a few up to 20+, or I needed to grow them early enough that they would have justified the resources so expended. And next time I'm going to just try to get a few Australian cities built for self trade, and not worry about growing them.

[Matthew]

I was playing at Diety, restless tribes. And not only is it possible on Diety, but I'm certain that playing under the conditions I described 1100 A.D. is possible. And North America on the world map isn't exactly an excellent location. Arii won even sooner than that on a small map (cheaper tech advances), but I think he got tribute, and I don't know if he rehomed his caravans.

And I do go into monarchy first.When playing under these conditions I usually try to trade for republic around 1 A.D.and celebrate then, perhaps a bit later. depends on what resources I have for building temples and the like.

[Hueij]

Just a question. Isn't playing on a random map more fun? With exploring and all?

[Matthew]

I generally do play on a random map, and mainly for that reason. But I was trying to see how early I could make it to AC, and I knew for a very early landing it would be helpful if I had a decent river for an SSC, and if other civs were on other continents for better trade routes. Granted, knowing the map in advance was an advantage. On the other hand North America on the large world map doesn't exactly have any stellar sites for a SSC, and I could probably get a better start on a Random map. Also computer generated maps tend to force the AI to build closer top the sea, making for better trade routes. But I didn't want to spend hours just trying to get a great start, so I went withone I knew would be somewhat decent.

[arii]

Great score matt! Large map makes it difficult techwise.
The 1060 game was deity rag horde small random map. I did rehome a lot of caravans and asked for tributes.