Killing off AI civs will affect your tech discovery rate

[Tom DeMille]

While replaying OCC11, I made an interesting discovery.

After building United Nations (I had had no contact with the other civs until this point), I gifted all my tech to the AI civs. I was expecting my advance rate for new techs to speed up, but it didn't even budge!

What was going on? I thought the # of beakers required for your next advance is partially based on how far ahead you are of the other civs. This indicated otherwise.

The answer came later in the game. Two civs had been destroyed early on in the game, so there were 2 free AI slots. The remaining AIs started fighting during the space race, and Persia's capital fell. Civil war errupted and a new French civ was formed. Shortly thereafter the new Persian capital also fell, and the Japanese civ was formed.

With 6 AI civs, my rate of tech advance fell from an advance every 6 turns to an advance every 3 turns.

The tech discovery rate formula must take into account dead civs. Dead civs will of course be behind you science wise. So if you are going for an early landing on AC, don't let any of your opponents die.

[Ming]

I still don't buy in into the fact that the other AI's effect your science rate.

I do understand that your science rate effects other civs, but not the other way around.

When I take a look at my science advance rate... it follows the number of beakers that have been discussed in past threads. And the number of AI civs, or their current level has never effected the number of beakers I need.

Can anybody really prove that.

[Smash]

ai tech does,without a doubt,effect YOUR research rate.Look at the OCC logs.

I also got some unexplained drops in Fortnight 11.Had to be caused by something.

[Aurelius]

I played OCC11 twice using separate strategies. In game one I had a 1960's result due to 4/5/6 turn science even though I had a fully developed science city under democracy. In game two I had a 1930's result due to a lot of 2 and 3 turn science even to the end.

I was very suspicious. But Tom's theory makes sense. In game one, two AI's were destroyed. leaving 4. In game two, one AI was destroyed leaving 5. And there was certainly no parity in science in either game--the one city ruled. So Something very strange is happening and I think there are more than one factor.

Though I know that science giveaway definately helps reduce the advance time or beaker requirements, I also noticed awhile back that one needs to give away science to most all the AI to get the benefits. So maybe the cut off is science parity with 5 of 6 AI and definately don't kill off more than one clan!

Nice theory Tom, I was so frustrated in game1 of OCC11!

[SCG]

perhaps the game is trying to: 1)simulate how exhanging of ideas (trading techs) with other people can lead to new insights to old problems, leading to better understanding and more efficient research. or 2) competition between equals each trying to one-up the other, taking on the other's challenge, leading to more breakthroughs.

likewise, if you are far ahead, you may be more lackadazical in your research, knowing there is no challenge to keep up, and if you are far behind, you already see ideas in action and it is easier figure out how they actually work.

makes sense to me anyway

[Tom DeMille]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 06-14-2000 11:21 AM I still don't buy in into the fact that the other AI's effect your science rate. I do understand that your science rate effects other civs, but not the other way around. When I take a look at my science advance rate... it follows the number of beakers that have been discussed in past threads. And the number of AI civs, or their current level has never effected the number of beakers I need. Can anybody really prove that.

Well, I had an autosave 2 turns before the "event" in my OCC replay, so did a little beaker counting.

Researching superconductor, I needed 3504 beakers.

Next turn, with a 7th civ having been created (with a full set of science), the beaker requirement had fallen to 1752.

I then gave away all my remaining science (laser, space flight, plastics) to all the AI civs, and the beaker requirements dropped again to 1679.

So something is going on...

[Ming]

Sounds like pretty good proof to me
That's all I asked...

And that's why I love these forums, you learn something new every day!

[shamrock]

Your right, Ming, these forums are great! Nice insights, Tom - thanks, I will definitely use this knowledge to help me beat Paul's record (he still holds the record, right?).

[Ming]

If he doesn't hold the record, I will have a heart attack... GO PAUL GO!

[Paul]

Yes, I still hold the record. I landed in 1645 in the second fortnight game (the one with the monarchy start). This is the only one of the fortnight games that was started on a random unmodified map, so all the results from the other fortnight games don't officially count as records.

[Ming]

Paul... I'm sure you can beat any of the "other" records if you just sat down and tried it... I bow to the OCC master ...
(and I used to think I was good at it)

[Paul]

Your research rate is affected by how far you are ahead of the AI. When I give all my technologies to the AI in my OCC games it certainly affects the number of beakers required for my next advance. When research takes three turns I can often get it back to two turns by giving away technology to the AI.

[Hooha]

This is my first post in this forum; I've been lurking for several weeks, and learning a lot.

I have to agree that AI science has an effect on your science rate. I've seen it happen where I've given the AI several techs, checking with my science advisor between gifts, and seen the time needed to complete my research go down from 12 to 11 to 10, etc. I see no other possible explanation.

[Carolus Rex]

The topic of this thread is why Adam Smith suggested using restarting eliminated civs for the Space Oddity Challenge (they keep half the techs).

Of course, not killing them in the first place is better, but how to control the violent AI?

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited June 15, 2000).]

[KhanMan]

This is wierd: back in the days when Strategy Guides were popular, I bought one for Civ2 and it gave a formula of how many beakers each advance cost. There wasn't any mention of ai civ's techs or lack there-of having any effect.

So I loaded up a saved game, and tried it. I build MPE, and gave every tech I had to all the other ais. My tech rate did not change before and after I gave these techs away.

Then I tried it in an OCC game (built MPE first, instead of Colossus). Same routine: gave away all techs, no change in tech rate.

Unfortunately, the manual only says: "As time progresses, new advances require more funding to research."

Anyone have a way to nail down this?

-KhanMan