Some OCCasional Insights

[tonic]

OCC is tough for two main reasons: it is civ2 at a super-Deity level and it is a new variety which requires some unlearning of principles taken for granted in the conventional game. Paul's genius lies in his weeding out all superfluous factors in order to optimize a one city race to AC. As a result some aspects of the strategy are counter-intuitive and here's some hyperbole to bring this home .

1. The 0CC Rule ie The 0 (zero) Cash-in-the-Coffers Rule

The closer the average cash in the coffers is to zero, the quicker the progress to AC. Or the rate of technological advance is inversely proportional to the average amount of cash in the coffers.

This would apply to most of the game from the completion of the Colossus to the building of SS parts. It takes some time for my personality type (saving is better than spending ) to come to grips with this less-is-more rule.

2. Cure is better than prevention.

Or Two Engineers in hand are worth a Mass Transit, a Recycling Center and the Hoover Dam in the city.

Tell that to the EPA .

3. Make alliances, not war.

Sorry you bloodlust types - there just ain't no time for institutional violence!

4. Give so that thou shalt receive or more thoroughly, Give all thine old techs so that thou shalt receive thine new techs pronto.

Perhaps with some provisos aired in current threads.

[East Street Trader]

OCCasional insights.

[KhanMan]

OCC is tough for two main reasons: it is civ2 at a super-Deity level and it is a new variety which requires some unlearning of principles taken for granted in the conventional game.

Hmmm...that's odd: I never knew some people thought of OCC as tougher than standard deity. After all, you don't have to build half the normal wonders, and city management is easier, and the game goes 10 times as fast...

Paul's genius lies in his weeding out all superfluous factors in order to optimize a one city race to AC. As a result some aspects of the strategy are counter-intuitive and here's some hyperbole to bring this home .

Hyperbole? what a surprize :P

1. The 0CC Rule ie The 0 (zero) Cash-in-the-Coffers Rule

The closer the average cash in the coffers is to zero, the quicker the progress to AC. Or the rate of technological advance is inversely proportional to the average amount of cash in the coffers.

This would apply to most of the game from the completion of the Colossus to the building of SS parts. It takes some time for my personality type (saving is better than spending ) to come to grips with this less-is-more rule.

Oh come on! This rule is true for the WLTxD strategy in rep or demo, as well as the knight horde strategy, and the ICS, and every other civ2 strategy that works. I mean, why should you care if you have 100 gold or 10,000? If you don't use it, all it's doing is sitting.

2. Cure is better than prevention.

Or Two Engineers in hand are worth a Mass Transit, a Recycling Center and the Hoover Dam in the city.

Tell that to the EPA .

Hoover Dam? In a competitive OCC-game at deity-level? LOL, sounds like someone has extra time...why not build a Hydro plant or Nuclear?

3. Make alliances, not war.

Sorry you bloodlust types - there just ain't no time for institutional violence!

No, it's make peace, not war. If you try alliances the ai will force you to choose between war with half the world, and losing half your techs to tribute, or a sneak-attack from your former ally.

4. Give so that thou shalt receive or more thoroughly, Give all thine old techs so that thou shalt receive thine new techs pronto.

Perhaps with some provisos aired in current threads.

Ex. Never give advanced flight or nuclear fission to a big civ in a space race...

-KhanMan the LLSS

[East Street Trader]

A Man of the Steppes who ain't too keen on horsemen is plainly a dude who is master of paradox. So, KhanMan, have you spotted owt paradoxical in your own OCCing experience that is worth the sharing?

[tonic]

quote: Originally posted by KhanMan on 06-25-2000 04:32 AM Hmmm...that's odd: I never knew some people thought of OCC as tougher than standard deity. After all, you don't have to build half the normal wonders, and city management is easier, and the game goes 10 times as fast...

Sorry KM, fast does NOT equal easy! The point is that you can take things more easily once you have got things going with you 100's of cities whereas OCC demands constant fine-tuning and split-turn timing; a missed opportunity to save a turn means someone else is ahead by one turn. Let this happen a few times and you get where you are AC cf the likes of Paul and Tom. In other words for a good result there really is very little margin for error.

quote: Hyperbole? what a surprize :P

As they say, one man's meat..So what's your hyperbole?

quote: (On the 0CC Rule) Oh come on! This rule is true for the WLTxD strategy in rep or demo, as well as the knight horde strategy, and the ICS, and every other civ2 strategy that works.

Sure, the point I was trying to make was that this is more central to the OCC game because it is so much faster and because of its more intense nature.

quote: I mean, why should you care if you have 100 gold or 10,000? If you don't use it, all it's doing is sitting.

You've missed the tongue-in-cheek reference to personality types who have been brought up to be tight with money. We sometimes bring in luggage from the real world into our virtual gaming lives! Hence the counter-intuitiveness.

More seriously though, there have been expressions of gratitude here in the past to the odd 10K or 20 in the coffers for the army of Diplos and Spies on a bribery expansion spree which has no place in OCC.

quote: Hoover Dam? In a competitive OCC-game at deity-level? LOL, sounds like someone has extra time...why not build a Hydro plant or Nuclear?

Well put - you've hit on the essence of OCC and for newbies this is one of the first truths gleaned. That's why it IS different from the conventional game. Hence the need to unlearn some things taken for granted.

quote: (3. Make alliances, not war.)No, it's make peace, not war. If you try alliances the ai will force you to choose between war with half the world, and losing half your techs to tribute, or a sneak-attack from your former ally.

One connotation of hyperbole is exaggeration ! Which after all is the driving force behind my tongue-in-cheek insights. Still, if you study the logs of the extant comparison games of the consistently successful regulars and an interesting post by Sten Sture in the archives on this topic, you'd realize that alliance-making is an art and an art certainly worth cultivating in OCC.

At last there's one (sort of) pass for Insight No.4. Phew! You're a tough task-master, KM .

[tonic]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by KhanMan on 06-25-2000 04:32 AM</font> Hmmm...that's odd: I never knew some people thought of OCC as tougher than standard deity. After all, you don't have to build half the normal wonders, and city management is easier, and the game goes 10 times as fast...

Sorry KM, fast does NOT equal easy! The point is that you can take things more easily once you have got things going with your 100's of cities whereas OCC demands constant fine-tuning and split-turn timing; a missed opportunity to save a turn means someone else is ahead by one turn. Let this happen a few times and you get where you are AC cf the likes of Paul and Tom. In other words for a good result there really is very little margin for error.

quote: Hyperbole? what a surprize :P

As they say, one man's meat..So what's your hyperbole?

quote: (On the 0CC Rule) Oh come on! This rule is true for the WLTxD strategy in rep or demo, as well as the knight horde strategy, and the ICS, and every other civ2 strategy that works.

Sure, the point I was trying to make was that this is more central to the OCC game because it is so much faster and because of its more intense nature.

quote: I mean, why should you care if you have 100 gold or 10,000? If you don't use it, all it's doing is sitting.

You've missed the tongue-in-cheek reference to personality types who have been brought up to be tight with money. We sometimes bring in luggage from the real world into our virtual gaming lives! Hence the counter-intuitiveness.

More seriously though, there have been expressions of gratitude here in the past to the odd 10K or 20 in the coffers for the army of Diplos and Spies on a bribery expansion spree which has no place in OCC.

quote: Hoover Dam? In a competitive OCC-game at deity-level? LOL, sounds like someone has extra time...why not build a Hydro plant or Nuclear?

Well put - you've hit on the essence of OCC and for newbies this is one of the first truths gleaned. That's why it IS different from the conventional game. Hence the need to unlearn some things taken for granted.

quote: (3. Make alliances, not war.)No, it's make peace, not war. If you try alliances the ai will force you to choose between war with half the world, and losing half your techs to tribute, or a sneak-attack from your former ally.

One connotation of hyperbole is exaggeration ! Which after all is the driving force behind my tongue-in-cheek insights. Still, if you study the logs of the extant comparison games of the consistently successful regulars and an interesting post by Sten Sture in the archives on this topic, you'd realize that alliance-making is an art and an art certainly worth cultivating in OCC.

At last there's one (sort of) pass for Insight No.4. Phew! You're a tough task-master, KM .

_______
EDIT: Don't know what happened with the editor - Now 2 for the price of one is hyper-hyperbole?
[This message has been edited by tonic (edited June 25, 2000).]

[KhanMan]

"A Man of the Steppes who ain't too keen on horsemen is plainly a dude who is master of paradox. So, KhanMan, have you spotted owt paradoxical in your own OCCing experience that is worth the sharing? "

Excuse me? Since when have I not been keen about using horsemen?

As far as my OCC-experience, nope!

:P

-KhanMan the LLSS

[KhanMan]

"Sorry KM, fast does NOT equal easy! The point is that you can take things more easily once you have got things going with your 100's of cities whereas OCC demands constant fine-tuning and split-turn timing; a missed opportunity to save a turn means someone else is ahead by one turn. Let this happen a few times and you get where you are AC cf the likes of Paul and Tom. In other words for a good result there really is very little margin for error."

Are you talking about sp OCC or mp OCC? In my view, OCC is easier because, with a lot of planning, you get a very refined strategy that works wonders, given the right start.

Yes, you have split-turn timing, and this, IMHO, is what makes OCC easier than standard deity, as well as an elegant way to compare strategies. OCC takes away most of the excess variables, and gives you a number to compare: "my strategy with this start led to this landing date".

IMHO, this steamlining makes it an easier way to win. I think this because I've managed to win a few OCC deity games with have the struggle as normal deity games, but this doesn't detract from the value of OCC...



Sure, the point I was trying to make was that this is more central to the OCC game because it is so much faster and because of its more intense nature.

Ah, so you were saying "buy things the first turn you can"?

More seriously though, there have been expressions of gratitude here in the past to the odd 10K or 20 in the coffers for the army of Diplos and Spies on a bribery expansion spree which has no place in OCC.

Yes, the ai will occasionally do damage bribing, though I prefer to head that off by sending in knight-hordes, rather than hording cash...

quote:

quote:

(3. Make alliances, not war.)No, it's make peace, not war. If you try alliances the ai will force you to choose between war with half the world, and losing half your techs to tribute, or a sneak-attack from your former ally.

One connotation of hyperbole is exaggeration ! Which after all is the driving force behind my tongue-in-cheek insights. Still, if you study the logs of the extant comparison games of the consistently successful regulars and an interesting post by Sten Sture in the archives on this topic, you'd realize that alliance-making is an art and an art certainly worth cultivating in OCC.

I'm all ears as to a way to keep ai allies from forcing you to give techs, start wars, etc.

At last there's one (sort of) pass for Insight No.4. Phew! You're a tough task-master, KM .

Task-master? LOL!

-KM the LLSS

[tonic]

Why not join in the friendly rivalry at the Fortnightly OCC challenges - one real attraction is relative brevity of the games. By posting your logs you will give us the benefit of seeing the application of your ideas (particularly on the relative ease of the game cf normal deity) in actual play compared to the efforts of the regular OCCers.

On the alliance issue, may I suggest it is one area where unlearning may apply .
[This message has been edited by tonic (edited June 26, 2000).]

[KhanMan]

Tonic-Well, the last few fortnights I've checked out were rather challengingly done...like the start in the arctic, with enemies all around...

I enjoy them, but my skills, and times, thus far are far inferior to the OCC masters...



-KhanMan the LLSS

and, yes, I could use some tips about how an alliance could be used and maintain in OCC without wars...

[Scouse Gits]

For what it is worth, a tactic I have used is to religiously alternate swapping maps (which they love) with requesting gifts - if you check my logs I think you will find that I am mildly successful at extracting Danegeld and keeping alliances.


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[tonic]

SG: Precisely. In my only successful (publishable that is) game, OCC5, you could see me religiously practising this important ritual (spelled out in the log for my own reference, variously as sharemaps or just =maps). Sometimes a bit tedious but you'd do anything to get a good attitude and the promise of the vaulable gifts that follow from that.

[tonic]

KM: Keep trying. It took me 4 serious tries before I could get a respectable result. And then on the 5th (trying OCC11) I bombed out again.

SG(1)'s advice is one of many that are to be found in the archives of this forum (There's gold in them thar mountins of posts). Look under "alliance/s" - they're arranged in alphabetical order. Also go through the logs of the previously completed Fortnightly OCC Comparison games. It is amazing how consistently the good performers get their 100's in gifts through alliances from very early on in the game, which is the point that was made by, I think, Sten Sture who recommended, based on his tries, getting alliances ASAP before the other civs start meeting each other and warring, giving the familiar problems you highlighted.

In OCC5 I also learnt it pays to be persistent in asking for an alliance. As SG(1) mentioned it does help to keep exchanging maps every few turns to improve their attitude. The English seem set on refusing. Then on my umteenth try, success.

[KhanMan]

Interesting...maybe I'll give fortnight a few tries on 2.42...I've been playing Gold exclussively, but I might go back to OCC for a change of pace.

Thanks for the tips.

-KhanMan the LLSS