Most underrated Wonder: Marco Polo

[Hawkx9]

I know it's probably been hashed and re-hashed, but I just wanted to mention that Marco Polo is much better than Great Library in SP games, especially on larger maps, IMHO. It's cheap and allows trade with every civ on the map. The AI seems to hold it in low regard, but who needs The Library when you can simply trade for what you want? Another huge plus is being able to trade for maps of unexplored territory, along with telling you when an opponents' city goes into disorder, who's allied with whom, and saving the lives' of your precious diplomats. I'm sure as heck not going to spend the time to send an expensive, weakling into the wilderness who's sure to be slaughtered/expelled. Well, I won't do it anymore, anyways.

[Hasdrubal]

I'm sorry, but I must differ with you on this one.
MP costs 200 shields. Six diplo's cost only 180 shields. I'll grant you that one will probably lose a diplo or two when trying to establish an embassy, or that one may encounter problems reaching some Civs. But embassies established manually don't expire. I rarely, if ever, bother to build this wonder, it comes very last on my list of wonders.

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

[shamrock]

quote: Originally posted by Hawkx9 on 06-08-2000 08:05 PM ... but who needs The Library when you can simply trade for what you want?

Uh... because when you trade for something, you necessarily have to give up something in return. On higher levels, the AI cheats its way to a lot of techs, which can translate to a lot of free discoveries if you have the library. Remember that w/ the library, each time two other civs trade a tech that you don't have, it's yours! That happens a pretty fair number of times for me, especially down certain tech paths that I tend to avoid for a while (i.e. chivalry, leadership, etc.).

And with MGE, the value of Marco's is mitigated further by the fact that the AI is so unlikely to trade techs or maps with you.

So, in most SP (and definitely MP) games, I would take the Library.

[Hawkx9]

Yes, but how often are you beside every civ on the map, especially early? Personally, I'm much busier making settlers or caravans. I don't have the time to produce that many diplos, much less guard them on their journey to a distant land. I'd rather take the quick, easy route and erect Marco Polo's Embassy - instant embassy with every civ. It's a matter of style I suppose.

In MGE, which is what I have, it's not all that difficult to get them to trade maps. Simply give away a few techs until they "worship" you, then offer the exchange. As long as both of you have Map Making, it works every time. And yes, I do play at King. Diety may be another story altogether.


Peace.
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 08, 2000).]

[Smash]

actually The Lighthouse is the most underrated wonder

[Civ-wrecked]

I usually build MPE. I rarely get anything from the GL (3 techs at most) anyway. Even if MPE is not as good as GL, it is certainly more fun to know what's going on and what the other civs are researching.

As for building diplos and send them around the world on leaky triremes which tend to get attacked and sunk by every single ship they may run into, you have to account for the cost of building those triremes & their maintenance until you can find the 6 other civs and get the diplos to their cities as well. Besides, that takes time and they might not be friendly any more by the time you find them and establish the embassies.

Probably Smash is right that the Lighthouse is the most underrated. I never built it even though I often wish that the triremes are not too easily sunk or simply lost at sea. I almost never build triremes unless I get stuck on a small island and need to get out. Those leaky boats are expensive and the AI seems to pick on them as first attack target (second target would be settlers !!).

[Aurelius]

After an uncontacted AI builds MPE does it ever contact the human? I've often wanted to trade techs with the MPE AI but it never seems to make contact with me. I don't care much for MPE except under certain conditions....like I'm stuck on an island or in a large map game.

[Scouse Gits]

The MP AI never seems to use the wonder to its full advantage. This is sadly typical for other wonders. In a recent game, the Chinese put Copernicus's Observatory in a tiny desert town making three beakers!
When the AI builds a wonder it can sometimes have as many as 6 cities on the task. It is adding the combined total of all the shields from the various places. Is it possible that if the "last shield" to build the project comes from a tiny desert town, that will be the location of the wonder?

Back to Marco Polo. On a large world it is very useful. If the object is conquest, the human player will probably have started with a small city sleaze. It is very useful to aquire some decent cities as early as possible. My first target (assuming I have no other opposition on the home continent) is a perfectionist civ. The Babylonians are typical. They build great cities, which are usually under-defended. Babylon, Ur and Nineveh are usually bursting with goodies. So - I want to meet these guys! The choice is either send out diplos in caravels and wait a few centuries - or send an e-mail via Marco. I know which way I prefer.

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SG (2)

[vik]

Smash beat me to it. I was going to suggest that the lighthouse is the most under-rated.

There was a good explanation awhile back on just how powerful this wonder can be.

Vet triremes that will kill all other ship and can go anywhere on the map and get there faster than any other ship. Sounds pretty good, and when you fill them with diplomats, you can always knock of some cities very cheaply and establish those early footholds.

[Steve Clark]

I just don't think Marco Polo is all that useful, even in SP on large maps. Here's why. More times than not, you will quickly get the lead on techs, especially in developing the SSC in your capital. The GL helps in filling in some gaps, but I really don't care to know what others have. If you look under the Science Advisor, a good number of techs will be in white, indicating at least one civ that does not have those techs. You know, if you do a good job of exploring, you'll run into others civ units, giving you the opportunity to trade. You know they will offer an earlier tech for one of your more recent ones. If they don't trade or you reject, no big deal, you just keep on racing up the tree anyway.

When I start a conquest of a civ in mid to late game, I'll just use ONE diplomat to start an embassy just to see how many cities I'll be clobbering. Until that time, there is no need for an embassy.

Most underrated wonder, imo? With MGE - Great Wall, not because of the city walls but because all civs must behave in respect to you regardless of their attitudes. Great for buying time in the early game.

[Sten Sture]

Steve - I think the white techs listed in yourscience adv menu are the techs that you got first (with ties included. IIRC the Mac version is different, but I can't remember how.
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MPE is fine with me, but I won't build the GL unless you put a gun to my head. Getting a couple of techs you intentionally avoided bashes your streamline toward the techs you really want. I HATE researching Monarchy as my 53rd technology. (okay a little exagerated there)

Maybe I would use the GL in combo with Fundy after the SoL if I had the military techs I wanted already - but other than that, I want to control my tech destiny.

MPE is an excellent source of knowledge and can be built very quickly with four caravans soon after getting trade - those caravans might be better used for real trading but at least the argument is close.

The Lighthouse is, too, me the most underrated - extra mobility early; vet triremes are invulnerable and everybody has heard of the vet ironclad advantages.

[jpk]

I like Marco Polo's Embassies. When you play on a large map it can be hard to find other civilizations. Even when they build a wonder so one can find their general location it can be hard to actually get a trieme and diplomat to that location.

When Marco Polo expires the cost of diplomats or spies to establish diplomatic relations is negligible. Spies are reusable.

I almost never build the Lighthouse. I tend to let my triemes hug the shore so that I can explore as I go. Maybe I'm making a mistake.

[War4ever]

Hey dont knock the Tower of Power

[Aurelius]

Yeah Steve, there is even an argument for Eiffel tower under certain circumstances. If you're in a close game you might want to conquest for it ONLY (never build it!) It will bring one's reputation up from Atrocious to questionable or dishonorable. Thus, it will allow one to break a few more treaties before the AI breaks them (ie you get initiative)--the only wonder that's worth less then the paper treaties are written on....

[Steve Clark]

Well, when it comes down to it, there are no absolutes in Civ2. Each game and each turn demands a certain level of strategic decision making. When you have finished a unit or improvement or wonder, you click on the Build button and there you have to decide what to start building next. Just because one does not routinely build MPE, there may be circumstances where it would makes sense. Thinking strategically requires adjustments in tactics. For example, if you are getting harrassed early on, the Great Wall may help; or if really behind in techs, Great Library; or if you are on an island, then Lighthouse and/or Magellan; or if you have trouble making contact with other civs, then Marco Polo. Each of these (and more) may not be typically built for some civers, but there will be situations where any one of these will be the right thing to do. Now the Eiffel Tower is different story.