Is Leo worth losing veteran status?

[Hawkx9]

I've been comtemplating this question for some time. Because my strategy is one of the perfectionist (especially early in the game), I rarely have a ton of units lying around, waiting to be upgraded. I cherish my vet Pikemen/Knights. Really, the only reason I like to get Leo is for the settler to engineer upgrade, but having only 6-8 cities, I really don't have that many setters to improve. Instead, I think I prefer building Sun Tzu to get the vets right out of the gate. That way, the few units I DO produce will remain vet until I feel the need to replace them with newer, veteran units. (ie. Pikemen - Musketeer - Alpine.) ST lasts quite a while before becoming obsolete, and by that time, you should be well on your way to victory.

Another arguement against Leo might be the versatility of vet Knights. Wouldn't you rather have 10 vet Knights than 10 rookie Dragoons? Aren't vet Knights 6/3/2 vs 5/2/2? or am I missing something? The same goes for most other units. With the exception of a firepower/hitpoint upgrade, wouldn't you rather have the slightly-older vet unit?

------------------
Peace

[Ming]

I'll take the upgrades. Even with a small military, the settler to engineer upgrade is almost worth it by itself. Plus, conscription is pretty easy to get, and I'll take non vet rifleman over vet pikeman any day

[Paul]

I'll take the settler -> engineer upgrade.

[cavebear]

I would certainly go for Leo's. First, I usually have a fair number of settlers, so that makes it worth it right there. Second, I usually get several generations of upgrades for my military units, so it's not just knights to dragoons. Third, I'd rather that my militaristic opponent with his 50 cheap horsemen not come storming at me with 50 cavalry all of a sudden.

Anyway, with the second upgrade of units, your gain over the older vet units is assured.

[Aurelius]

Leo's is great for defensive wars. You can ignore upgrading units and while pursuing city improvements. I always build fortresses on defensively enhanced terrain at strategic points, sometimes it take awhile to get a upgraded defensive unit to these fortresses...leo's does it for you.

Might not happen often, but seeing warriors and phalanx go to pikeman is nice in a world of full of four legged creatures regardless of vet status.
[This message has been edited by Aurelius (edited June 10, 2000).]

[rah]

The multiple updates make up for the lack of vet status. I like to build Sun Tzu along with it to get the best of both worlds. Alphine units are better than vet pikeman.
RAH

[Steve Clark]

Absolutely. Along with what the others have said, if your units are in the mist of attacking or defending against the AI, they will most always gain vet status soon after they get upgraded. Therefore, the only disadvantage to Leo becomes moot.

[Scouse Gits]

Stick with Leo's - but I hate my vet ironclads becoming green destroyers.
-------------
SG (2)

[Paul]

rah, I don't think you can get Alpines from Leo's. At least, I don't remember ever getting them.

[geofelt]

I say build leo's for the convenience, if nothing else. It saves a ton of management to keep your units updated. I like magellan's, and hoover's for the same reason.

[Smash]

I'm not sure if its worth it or not.Early units to muskets is good.Boats are good.Engineers are great.Horseman are pretty good to upgrade also.After that I don't think so.

Vet musket is as good as or slightly better than a non vet rifleman defensively.Cannon>artillery is good but 1 movement units can be tricky to get into position.At least in MP.

Ironclad>destroyer is awful but The Library must be neutralized if don't have it.

Definitely want Sun Tzu's combo if conducting offensive wars.

I guess it is a very good wonder

no panic if it is missed though.

[Hawkx9]

The fact that you can't get Alpine troops from Leo is one big reason I think it may deserve a lower rung on my priority list. Alpine are sooo much better than Riflemen it's insane. I'm a big fan of vet Knights and, later, vet Cavalry/Alpine so my tastes are biased (because they're mine) . I hate it when all my lovely 6/3/2 Knights turn into the lowly 5/2/2 Dragoon. Although, I do have to note that Dragoons have 2HP compared to the Knight's 1HP; however, the Knights' higher attack rating will give it more survivability. Also, Knights are intended to be expendible to a certain extent. They are attackers, not defenders, so they don't rely on HP as say a defending unit. "But what about the Cavalry upgrade," you ask? Yes, having green Cavarly is better than having vet Knights, but Tactics is a far shot off from Chivalry.

Now, with that said, the converstion of Warriors and Phlanx to more modern units puts Leo's over the top. It's just plain nice to have those first few units turn into Riflemen, and a pain in the ass when the opponent's do the same.

------------------
Peace

[War4ever]

The problem i have with the leos upgrade is the vet pike to non vet musket especially when vet knights or crusaders come knocking in hordes while muskets will usually beat knights or crusaders in a one on one fight, in MP i rarely see just one four legged jackass at a time..... therefore there is a time when you are vulnerable... however once you have riflemen, your safe until calvalry.... its a small window but i have used it like the vet iron clad one to perfection on more than one occassion but suffered from it as well

Also barbs seem to come knocking in droves with their units too....... i swear the game knows it's me playing
but i say yes to leos in MP if you are isolated or want a few hundred years of infrastructure building in peace

[Jim W]

Leo's is a crutch for the weaker player.

Ooops! Did someone already say that?

Actually, I go for Leo's as soon as it's available, just because if I don't have it, someone else will, and it's a great advantage.

I still figure, some day in the future, I will diaable Leo's, forcing myself to pay a cost to change my legions into musketeers and so on. At present, though, with my great skill, it's still too valuable to give up.

Jim W

[Genghis Al]

Simply not to let the opponent have this is enough for me. I don't play very offensively so the lose of vet status doesn't effect me at all, I usuallt don't build barracks until tanks. Satisfy me and the gods, build Leo's.

Alex v4.6

------------------
See you in court.