My first OCC game

[Campo]

Played my first OCC game yesterday. I used Bird's comparison game from Paul's site. I didn't do too well -- the Egyptians landed on AC before I even had space flight (and after they had conquered the whole world except me).

I had two particular problems. First, I was very late getting to Monarchy because the tech path didn't allow it. I can't recall the year, but it was by far the latest I've ever seen.

Second, and more important, I was relentlessly harassed by the Persians. They attacked me incessantly in the early years. I gave them every tech I had, but still they attacked. Either they just sneak-attacked, or they demanded tribute which I didn't pay (because I needed the money for rush-buying) and they declared war. Dealing with the fighting slowed down my progress enough so that I lost Copernicus. Finally, about during the gunpowder era, they left me alone. However in the later game -- about 1900AD -- they built a city just outside my city radius and resumed the harassment. They had troops roaming my city squares, and eventually they attacked with tanks. I held them off, but it was a big delay -- I had to use too many resources for military units. They also killed two of my engineers.

Is this normal for OCC? I didn't expect these kinds of sustained attacks until after I launched a spaceship. I generally don't mind a good battle, but it was really aggravating to not be able to field an army to wipe them out.

One other question: I didn't see anything in the rules about bribing engineers. I sent a spy around and ended up finding three relatively cheap NONE engineers. That helped a lot, until the Persians killed two of them. Is that "legal"?

[Oldman]

Campo,
You sound well stressed out by all that fighting!!! I've never had that much hassle from the other civs in an OCC game! in occ6 they were quite aggressive, but not that bad!!! Have any of you other guys played birds comparison game??

And with your techs you really need to streamline what you research!!!! the important ones are bronze working, monarchy and Trade!!! These are the must haves - ingnore everything else, so you can trade it or until you have to have it!!!

Make sure you read Pauls occ rules, he goes through what you need to research and build for each epoch!!! http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occ.htm


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Oldman,

"There are not more than 5 musical notes..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 primary colours..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 cardinal tatses..." - Sun Tzu

and we build an Academy for this guy...


Edited: those bloody smilies!!
[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Tom DeMille]

Nothing illegal about bribing units, so go for it. Accepted theory goes that the money spent on bribing NONE units could be better used to rush buy Wonders, but there are always exceptions.

Constant war with an AI is pretty uncommon in OCC. If you are able to find AIs early enough in the game (before they find each other and start wars amongst themselves), you can generally form an alliance with them (just give them tech, and keep on giving). I can often form an alliance with all but 1 or 2 of the AIs, and the one or two that do not ally with me are too far away to harass me.

Good luck in future OCC games. Try the fortnight competitions - there's no "expiry" date on them, and anyone can join in on the fun

edit: Oldman raises a point that should be clarified with OCC games. If you play a scenario (such as the fortnight games), the tech tree is completely available - as long as you have the prerequisites, you can research it.

In a regular non-scenario game (such as birds saved game), the choice of techs to research is limited. After researching alphabet, ceremonial burial and code of laws, you might be offered a list of techs that consists of: Pottery and Warrior Code. Pretty annoying, but thats the way it goes.

We are generally able to finish a scenario at a much earlier date than a comparable regular saved game (early 1800s landings aren't too hard on some scenarios, but only Paul can consistently get early 1800s landing in regular games).
[This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Paul]

Campo, which version of Civ2 do you have? If you have the multiplayer version that could explain your problems. The AI in MP is much more aggressive than in the original single player version. I don't have the MP version, but some people here play OCC with the MP version. Maybe they can tell you more about how they deal with the aggressive AI.

[The Lame Duck]

I've had the same problems when playing an OCC in MGE. I can usually form an alliance with each civ I encounter on the turn I encounter them, but then our relationship rapidly deteriorates. It seems that the baseline relationship is uncooperative, unless you've given them something that turn. Consequently, the other civs are always harassing you and will usually cancel alliances the next time they come in contact with you. This makes it really hard to trade techs (because they constantly demand all your techs, so you have to go up two on the computer before you can trade one) and pretty much impossible to get money. Plus the added pain of fending off technologically and numerically superior attacks.

Because of the hostile AI, I have yet to win an OCC game on either one of the 'approved' scenarios or a randomly generated map (although I did come close one time- only losing to the dratted Chinese by ten turns or so). When I really want to play an OCC game, I'll usually generate a random map and then create a city grid sized island linked to the mainland by a single square. Then I put a mountain on that square, so I can stick a defensive unit on it early in the game and prevent anyone from messing with my city squares. That usually lets me hold out long enough to gain a technological edge, and then it's all over.

[geofelt]

Some time back, there was a thread which looked at the fastest way to research to monarchy. The best theory(which was not proven) is that you can't research two consecutive techs in the same category. Monarchy, code of laws, and ceremonial burial are in the social category, and alphabet is in the academic category.
When given a choice, I start with ceremonial-burial instead of alphabet. This gives me the ability to build a temple which I might need, and gets one of the social techs out of the way. I don't remember not getting the option to research alphabet(acaademic) next.

[Campo]

Oldman:
And with your techs you really need to streamline what you research!

The problem was that I wasn't offered first Ceremonial Burial and then Monarchy as research choices. I did Alphabet right away, then Code of Laws. Then Ceremonial Burial wasn't a choice -- I had to do pottery, masonry, and I think one other. Then I got Ceremonial, but after that it was 3 or 4 other techs researched before Monarchy as a choice. I've never had to wait that long.

Make sure you read Pauls occ rules

Thanks, I did. I wouldn't have had any clue otherwise.

Tom:
Nothing illegal about bribing units, so go for it. Accepted theory goes that the money spent on bribing NONE units could be better used to rush buy Wonders, but there are always exceptions.

I was able to bribe three Greek engineers for 320 gold each, because the Greek treasury was pretty low. I thought that was a good enough deal to warrant doing. That didn't happen until I had built one engineer of my own, which I disbanded after I had the three NONEs.

Paul:
Campo, which version of Civ2 do you have?

Actually I have them both. I originally got MGE but got frustrated with the AI attitude, so I picked up a used 2.42. That's what I played this game with, which made the Persian aggressiveness all the more surprising.

Lame Duck, you might want to look for 2.42. It really does make a difference. (Well it always has before anyway.)

Thanks all.

[Oldman]

Yeah, tom corrected me anyway!!! in a scenario you can research whatever is available!!!!! but in a standard Sp game, it's a bit more tempramental!?!?!?

Can some someone have a look at the last post on the occ8 thread, i'm having a confusing time with my occ game that i can't be bothered to cut and paste cause my connection is sooooo slow!!!

[Campo]

BTW, it was mostly the Persians who came after me. The Greeks harrassed me a few times too, but not that bad.

The other civs were all quite agreeable. By the end the Egyptians could have wiped me out easily, with or without nuclear. (They had it and I didn't.) They hovered all around but let me survive.

[Scouse Gits]

A tip I picked up from Ming on another thread - SG2 & I tried it out Sunday evening with some success (I don't know how well if at all it works in MGE)...
The AI loves trading maps - having got the AIs worshipful by the usual technique of dumping encartas of techs on their doorstep swap maps EVERY turn - they stay worshipful!


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Tom DeMille]

Ouch, that sounds boring.

[Campo]

I went through the saves of my OCC game last night to get more detail on the research path. I started researching Alphabet. Ceremonial Burial came up about 2000BC. Code of Laws at 1000BC. Monarchy did not appear as a choice until 200AD. I had 15 techs by then, most from research but a few from huts. I usually have at most half that number before Monarchy. I completed Monarchy in 500AD, the latest I've ever reached it. I don't understand why it didn't appear as a research option until so late.

A question -- when I check with the Science Advisor for the list of my techs, most are in yellow but a couple show up in white. What does that mean?

[Scouse Gits]

I believe these are the ones that you were the first to obtain/research, but I must admit to being uncertain.


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[Sten Sture]

It might not always be the idea option, but I try to wait to pop huts until after I have Monarchy. I have played OCC in MGE quite a few times and it is fractionally harder, because tribute isn't as easy, but it helps if you:

1) give a lot of techs away
2) trade maps, espec with your nearest ally
3) look weak - don't build a lot of units
4) spend all of your money before you talk to any AI. "gosh, I'd love to give you money, but I just rush built Copernicus' Observatory - sorry!"
5) get allies early and make sure you keep the ones close by even if it means declaring war on a civ farther away - in fact this is a good way to keep them happy.
6) I research in this order - Alpha, Bruial, Code, Bronze, Monarchy. If I don't pop huts in MGE I have always gotten Monarchy 5th. geofelt's comment about consecutive techs is why I split Alpha, Code, and Monarchy - I am sure there are other patterns that work, but I am scared to change now that I found one that works.

[Steve Clark]

Thanks my good friend, Sten. Like Campo, I will soon try my first OCC game (in MGE, no less) and your list is very helpful.