Best on the sea

[Viktor Maximus]

What's the point of being the best nation on
the sea? If you are the best on the sea,
with your battleships with AEGIS cruisers
ar air protect, you only can travel around
and search for enemy ships. If you attck a
city from the sea the costal fortress
slaughter your ships. It's meaningless and
stupid to attack citys from the seas.
Is it anyone who knows the point of sea superiority?

[Hendrik the Great]

Have you ever tried to launch a successfull invasion against an island civ from the sea that ruled the waves?
I was naive enough to do so once or twice just to see most of my transports slaughtered
by enemy ships and there was nothing I could do to stop them from coming after me once they had finished of the remains of my invasion force.

Furthermore, Battleships and cruisers are an excelent way to destroy any unit that walks along the shore. If you should happen to have one or two carriers in your navy that are fully equiped with fighters, bombers and missiles you can be sure to launch a successfull invasion from the sea.

Besides, I hate to lose transports with caravans to some stupid ironclad or frigate.

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Mathias' Civ II Page http://members.xoom.com/thalys/index.html
[This message has been edited by Hendrik the Great (edited April 24, 2000).]

[Tom DeMille]

There was a discussion on the same sort of subject (title was "Naval Strength") a couple of months back. Here is the url: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001007.html

[BlackJack]

Well Vik one thing you can do is pick on folk before they get Metallurgy. I try to keep the smile off my face, but my Ironclads can wreck havoc for quite a while.

And I'm presuming "best on the sea" means you've got Magellan. So think subs man. Lots of subs. Station 'em in groups 3 along approach routes and you'll never again have to worry about attack from the sea. They're cheap.

But battleships are probematical for me too. By the I get 'em, most civs have Metallurgy so I'm reluctant to bombard cities unless I know whats in them. So I like to get espionage as soon as I can to investigate AND knock out things like coastal fortresses. But when the other civs get Rocketry, forget about. I still can't believe how easily they can spot my battleships - let alone the number of cruise missiles they can throw at them. After Rocketry, just keep 'em in port to pick off anything that gets past the subs - until it's time for your own invasion from the sea.

[N35t0r]

of course, you can stack one or two AEGIS cruisers...

[Venger]

Not being the best on the seas is usually the easiest way to see why you SHOULD be the best on the seas...

As to why it's important...the single most important reason is the ability to attack enemy rear areas. Trust me, dump 3 howies, 2 armor, and 3 mech inf on a rear city and you can THRASH the enemies rear. Easily 2 or 3 cities captured. Now you've caused them to have to rush forces to the rear. WHAM! Right in the kisser...

The AI knows the location of ALL of your ships. How could it not? It will attack all ships in range. It will paradrop into any city left unprotected. All without sending a ship or plane to investigate. Just a byproduct of the way the program is written.

As for battleships, they can take out any single defensive unit even with a coastal fortress. But what they REALLY excel at is not at taking out the top unit in the city, but units 3 through 6...use a Stealth or howitzer to take out the top defender or two, and watch your battleships rack up the others. Plus, they can be brought into harbor to get rid of partisans that appear next to the city.

Stacking an Aegis with him is a good way to protect him from the CMH that will ensue...

Venger
P.S. CMH=Cruise Missile Hordes

[klesh]

Naval Power in a game where you have plenty of surplus production is guarenteed security for your homelands, as well as a near guarentee for sucessful invasions of your enemies.
Aircraft carriers can hold unlimited units (right?) and therefore are indespensible for softening defenses before your invasion. Slap some Cruise Missles up in there....Mmmmm tasty!
Battleships are very much a target for the CMH, but a few AEGIS' for escort is a great defense against Cruise Missles.
MWHC posted some nice screenshots about how he likes to defend his fleets. He makes some nice looking bundles of warships guarded by Stealth Bombers around the periphery.
I'm playing as Japan in a 2194DaysofWar hotseat game with my neighbor... My Imperial Task Force has set sail for England by way of Northern Canada. The task force consists of:
1 Aircraft Carrier: 20 Bombers, 10 Zeros, 5 Okah Bombs
2 Superbattleships
3 Battleships
8 Cruisers
12 Destroyers
6 Submarines on point for scout duty
6 Freighters with 24 land units approx:
75% Imperial Marines
20% Field Artillery
5% AA Batteries.

I cover all the freighters with Cruisers for protection.
This sounds like a ton of overkill, but with the enormity of this operation, I needed to have guarenteed success. My neighbor(Germany)
and I are going to have a joint Opperation Sealion. I will be taking Glascow, Dublin, and also Iceland. Here I will establish Atlantic Supremecy as well as the Pacific supremecy that I already have.
"But what about the US?" you say...
I also have a home fleet operating in the Pacific, there is no concern for the Americans. I have left Japan proper quite lightly defended, I would not be able to do this without the Grand Imperial Naval Armada.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

[BlackJack]

Venger's approach is the one I like when it's time for my invasion from the sea. I suggest you don't skimp though - another couple of transports with a bunch of spies, a couple more howitzers, and a couple of tanks and you've got a force that can choke off the partisans and comfortably withstand the counterattack.

But about those CMH - it's like I need at least two Aegis; I add an additional one for every turn it's going to take to get my invasion forces to the destination. PLUS, if it's going to take more than two turns, I want a carrier with a dangling bomber. That's the only safe way to withstand the CMH. I mean, I've started turns with like a dozen cruise missiles surrounding my force; just dangling there for my fighters to pickoff - and I know it's not much, but that part is a lot of fun. Without the bomber cover, every CMH attack degrades the Aegis to the point where first they loose movement points, slowing down the force, and then they just loose - there's nothing worse than seeing a message like "30 units lost."

So I guess I say all that to say when it's time to invade, INVADE! Don't skimp of the forces. Go for the capital. If he runs, have enough stuff to chase him down same turn - like a transport full per $000. Force 'em to split. Force 'em into disorder. Then your spies can pick up the pieces real cheap.

And all this starts, like I said in my original post, with your subs taking control of the sea.

[Canadian War Beaver]

Well i have to agree with the others, Naval Superiority is a must on a water world... ie any mid to large map.... and i think that naval power in general is one of the least used tactics in civ.

Most of us use our navy for exploring and caravans, and granted unless you have superior units, ie iron clads or frigates, attacking gunpowder units can be pure death.

However, the Lighthouse gives triremes such a huge boost... with the obvious vet status and extra movement. Non vet triremes lose most of the time against vet ones which can be a real bummer when your opponent sails by.

I was once in a game where my opponent mastered the seas...... there by blocking me from attacking his continent. I tried the polar caps and all, alas to no avail.... he then stole whatever tech i had as i was leading in every department but the sea route while i was left shaking my head trying to find a way past his nasty blockades.

I still believe many players forget about the early benefits of the sea..... well those except Ming , who always takes the lighthouse when i play him and they concentrate on the land war. Granted on a small large land mass this isn't a major deal but when playing on bigger maps, domination of the seas is a must. It allows faster movement and deployment of troops and dips..... there by wreaking havoc or just causing a major disruption in you opponents expansion as he never knows when a boatload of hordes is going to shore up on his friendly soil.

That said, against the ai, yes those CMH are a real nightmare, but thats war for you..... it evens the odds as in most naval wars, i take out the ai's ships with out losing too many of my own.....but those damm missles always catch me off guard once in a while ..... and although "30 units lost" pierces my heart and the hearts of the suffering families , it makes the sea war a little more realistic as i think it is alright to suffer some casualties when i fight..... again it furthers the realism for me.......ok thats enough for now , just my two cents worth

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Dont' let the name fool you, my policy is still the same..... War4ever.... damm where did i put that nuke

[SilverDragon]

I love having a huge navy. Then anything that touches the coast gets killed by my AEGIS cruisers and Battleships. Once you have the sea all to yourself, you can move transports and carriers around without much worry. Once other civs ships are gone, I bombard cities over and over, and the other civs will just keep buying more units for my AEGIS cruisers to use as target practice. The best way to learn the importance of a good navy is to try a game without any warships. Then you will never skimp on AEGIS cruisers again.

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

[Sieve Too]

Never been a fan of the navy in CivII SP. Once I have air units, I use them for scouting and destroying enemy ships. Unlike a damaged Battleship, damaged air units don't take forever to return to your cities.

Magellan is good to have, though. If you have it, you need fewer ship escorts since you can land your transports from farther out. If possible, island hop from city to city to keep your transports safely in port.

[SilverDragon]

Magellan is not good to have. It is very very good to have

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

[The Mad Viking]

Viktor - it's meaningless and stupid to attack coastal forts with ships, SAM batteryies with planes or city walls with infantry. That's whats spies are for!

I will attack through city walls with vet cannon against pre-gunpowder units, but thats about it. Like the epigram in "Fire!" says, the strategy of attrition means the absence of any strategy at all. I don't attack units in cities unless I'm sure I'll win - you lose a unit and create a veteran - like you say, meaningless and stupid.

CMH, good TLA.

(Three letter acronym)