Building roads for trade.

[Adam Smith]

My two cents:
When you establish a trade route you lose any surplus science beyond what is needed for the next discovery. Because of this, it is far more efficient to CONSISTENTLY deliver a bunch of less profitable caravans (ie every single turn) than it is to deliver a few huge ly profitable caravans on an intermittant basis. For this reason, if I find a decent sized foriegn city that repeatedly demands the same trade commodity (See http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000231.html) I will almost always build roads and railroads for the AI in order to help me reach that city, rather than trade with a larger, possibly wealthier city that is harder to reach.

Adam Smith
A PBS mind in an MTV world.

[AkwaticDudeCity]

You can make sure you don't lose surplus science.
When my caravans arrive in their ships i don't use them all at once. I check my science advisor and depending on how much research i have and how much research i expect to gain from a particular caravan, decide which traderoute gets established which turn.
More accurately, if after establishing a traderoute that has provided me enough research to get an advance the next turn and i still have caravans parked in front of the city, i have them skip a turn.
Obviously you do need the Lighthouse for transcontinental trade in the pre-caravel era, so make sure you have it if that kind of trade is your intention. I myself don't perform that much pre-caravel trade. I do build the caravans though, but keep them stacked and send them away when there are caravels or better transports available. Which is usually very soon after the first caravans are built on account of me only building caravans after all available 1 gold/turn improvements and a colloseum are present in the particular city.
To find out what cities are large enough, keep an eye on the Top 5 cities list, especially in the pre-wonder era. Then attempt to find and/or contact the particular civ and exchange maps.
Another reason to keep all your trade focused on one foreign city is that the respective civ will not benefit too much from your trade.

------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

[KenThur]

Some good points around!

ADC's tactic of delaying arrival of a trade if U R near the end of a research cycle = very smart. In fact, if in doubt, i'll emphasize research for that turn to ensure the current advance finishes... don't like my caravans hanging around others' cities too long ya-know.

I'm with Jim tho as far as building roads to others. Not just trade units can move along transportation networks... if U get my drift. Somewhere along the route there will be a good defensive position to set up an outpost against military units &/or diplo's from sneaking into your civ w/o U knowing it. Preferably this is closer to THEM than to U. Always keep in mind the end game (someONE has to win).

Of course in so many MP games... it never GETS TO the end game.
=========================================
Q: Does anyone trade with enemies in MP games? Especially sea-drops into nice big coastal cities on other continents?

------------------
"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited April 23, 2000).]

[Venger]

I do not establish trade routes with other civs.

Why?

Simply put, I will give no trade arrows to any enemy civ for his revenue or science production. Ever.

I would rather give those trade arrows for the destination to my own civ. I'll give up the higher money reward and few extra trade arrows to get trade arrows in two of my own Civs. The destination city gets trade improvements without having to build a carvan on it's own. In addition, trade within my Civ happens faster, meaning I get several turns with trade instead of watching my Galleon splish splashing across the ocean hoping it doesn't get sunk.

Trade with an ally? What's an ally?

Venger

[Adam Smith]

Akwatic, and Others:
Of course you can delay the arrival of your caravans for a turn or two to get the next advance. But then what? Your next arriving transport is several turns away, and you are stuck. If you set it up right you can run off one discovery per turn for 15-20 turns. But to do this, you need reliable transport, and that often means building roads or rails in AI territory. Of course you have to choose your friends. Would I try this with the Babylonians, Chinese, Americans, or Egyptians? Sure. Greeks, Zulus, Mongols, or Vikings? Not likely.

Venger:
Consider this situation with 40-50 turns to go in a game. You establish a trade route with the AI, giving your city and their city 10 arrows per turn, and giving you a trade bonus of 1000+ coins and science. If you establish a route with your own cities your bonus might be a quarter of that. I will happliy trade with the AI under those or almost any other circumstances.

------------------
"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales

[AkwaticDudeCity]

I forgot to mention this. Roads within your city's radius will not only increase 'raw' trade, but also the per-turn value of a traderoute.
Also, for the per-turn value of a traderoute, it doesn't matter how far the continent you're trading with is. Better yet, it doesn't even have to be a real continent. An island will do just as well.

Adam Smith
What do you mean: 'and then what?' Then you keep on playing. There's also the regular science you know . And in case you didn't notice, i was referring to sea-borne trade. I don't even bother with land-based trade.
------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?
[This message has been edited by AkwaticDudeCity (edited April 24, 2000).]

[Bohlen]

Trading with hostile civs, both early and late, is exactly why I feel the Great Wall and U.N. are almost 100% necessary when you are in a tech tree race trading game. Before the expiration of the GW, I feel pretty safe in trading with other civs, that is as long as there has been contact. The last thing anyone needs is a ship with 2-3 caravans being destroyed by a rival civ who doesn’t know who you are as you near their coast.

The trade benefits with trading with a large rival civ city are just too great to not take advantage of it. That is especially true with the SCC. Unlike Venger, I almost never trade within my own civ and continent. If one of my large colonies is needing something then they get it. But otherwise, my trade routes are with other civs.

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith on 04-23-2000 10:57 PM Venger: Consider this situation with 40-50 turns to go in a game. You establish a trade route with the AI, giving your city and their city 10 arrows per turn, and giving you a trade bonus of 1000+ coins and science. If you establish a route with your own cities your bonus might be a quarter of that. I will happliy trade with the AI under those or almost any other circumstances.

Between large cities you'll usually score 400+ domestically, assuming in demand goods (uranium, coal, oil). Keep in mind that not only does the source city score, the destination does as well. I'd rather have 6 in each of mine that 10 in the source. I don't need the money. Discovering every 3 turns does me no good if my enemy does as well. The key is not just science production but the DELTA in science between me and my opponents. I'll lose the cash and take the edge...

Venger

[The Mad Monk]

I see the AIs build marketplaces, but libraries tend to be rare, and the higher order econ. buildings rarer still; I've seen a University only once. I always nail Mike's, JSB, and Shake's; as a result, my lux is always around 20% (to get WLT*D), while the AIs are at 30% or greater (just to keep out of disorder). Trade routes give an equal amount to both cities, true, but thanks to the above, I benefit much more than the AI.

That's MY delta...

[Smash]

I setup domestic routes early and more lucrative foreign routes later.Almost always deliver by sea.

If I build a road from my civ to an ai civ it won't be caravans headed for them

[Jim W]

I had not totally ignored the fact that roads run both ways; I'm dumb in many ways, but that isn't one of them.

On any road that runs through, or even into, foreign territory, I have somebody sitting in a fort, preferably on a hill, and even more preferably at a choke point, demanding passwords, countersigns, and all that good stuff I learned about in Basic Training. (Canadian Army,(Reg)).

Jim W

[Adam Smith]

Venger:

quote: Discovering every 3 turns does me no good if my enemy does as well.

A discovery every three turns? Maybe thats the problem. By trading with foreign cities you can run off a discovery every single turn, for 15 or 20 turns. That is more than enough delta for me or anybody else.

------------------
"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales
[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited April 24, 2000).]

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith on 04-24-2000 11:31 PM Venger: Discovering every 3 turns does me no good if my enemy does as well.

A discovery every three turns? Maybe thats the problem. By trading with foreign cities you can run off a discovery every single turn, for 15 or 20 turns. That is more than enough delta for me or anybody else.